A game review sort of...

[Duran]

Hello all,

As a person interested in buying this game but sadly too late to the party to join the Kickstarter :(, I have been watching the games development, especially in the last few months with the beta video releases. And since we have just one more month until release I have some concerns about the game.

I’d like some answers to a few of these, or at least to raise some awareness here. I know I might be upsetting some people who are really hyped about this game. And to be honest I am too… I want it to be good. But that doesn’t mean that I can ignore the things that I feel need to be addressed.
A glaring problem I have noticed is with the kingdom building system.
While the events where you send and assign companions in different positions of power looks like it could grow into some interesting aspects, the town founding and building itself is ... lacking.
Bluntly put, the TT rules in all their broken potential for exploitation look more interesting.
The first issue is one of presentation. It looks like a cheap online freemium city builder, actually some of those seem to put more effort into it than this. a square grid of 9 slots with no defining feature of any of the cities you claim or found, no geographic influence on them except MAYBE you lose the pier slot if it's not near water, but above all else: no character. Every town including the capital, as far as the beta is concerned, looks like a carbon copy of each other. There's no character to any of these towns, either in how they look, certainly not in how they are built. And while I could move past that in terms of generic random villages, the capital village following the exact same template is glaring.
Next is one of mechanics. I understand some depth was meant to be added to the game via making buildings influence and supplement each other in logical fashion (you get a brewery, a windmill to grind the harvest to provide some material for the brewery, and a tavern to sell the produce at in the same town, well those 3 form a production chain that boosts the effects of each building. Same with windmill into bakery). However, ... adjacency bonuses? This could not have been a worse idea. yeah, in concept they work, in practice ... you've just compounded the issue of lack of character and differentiation for each town. Adjacency systems are a simplistic system to add false depth that in truth results in one thing only: cookie cutter city layouts and cloned city as far as the country-side can see. You will NEVER build a barracks for example, without slapping a blacksmith, longhouse and watchtower next to it because to do so would be a waste. You will never slap a monument in every town, because without the shrine/temple next to it, it's benefits are castrated, to say the least. And if that town is already occupied by other "optimal configurations" to maximize benefits ... I guess you're ♥♥♥♥ out of luck. I also guess you're ♥♥♥♥ out of luck if you wanted a theme or to build certain things for RP reasons because then you lose the bonuses. Yeah, not all people play to optimize, but it's nevertheless a glaring flaw within the system.
Next on the table, I have noticed some concerning issues with the RPG elements/story.
Spoilers for the tutorial part of the game if you want to avoid knowing anything about the story.


The problem I have here starts the moment when Tartucio gives you that ring. We have prior information related to Tartucio and what kind of a person he is, so it is not hard at all to see a possible trap coming.
Furthermore, the entire ring scenario smells like it was written for a … for lack of a better word stupid good archetype. It feels insulting when you as a player see it coming a mile away. Furthermore, how the hell do I as a lawful evil or chaotic evil or any kind of evil character allow someone to play around with me like that? Especially considering some of those alignments define the type of people who are SUPPOSED to be the scheming and treacherous? Compound this with a Demonic bloodline sorcerer or a cleric of Asmodeus. This game was designed for role-play, right?
It creates glaring problems of behaving out of character, it creates problems later in the story, it just breaks immersion and it’s a horrible first impression. It makes you as the player look like an incompetent dunce.
Say Tartucio was smart enough to hide the ring on the corpses of those guys and claims to know that the guy had a good ring on him and that you should use it. Or even better, you just loot it and he congratulates you on a good find (it would also make him at least pretend to be a nice guy). That would make far more sense and you could RP around it.
You are later accused of having the ring and find out what it was. At that point if the plan was actually well executed. Slow clap and prepare for payback. As an example, you can later find a letter from Tartucio bragging about his great idea to some of his collaborators. And use that letter to prove you are innocent.
All I am saying is that there were far better ways to write this scene, especially considering is one of the first things that happen in the story. I have to ask then: how much actual RP will there be here when this is what I got in my tutorial as a choice, my very first choice a binary one in a 9 alignments system, where the 2 chosen alignments look slapped on there at random? How great are those characters, because all I can see here are cardboard cut-out generic characters acting in ways you should be able to call them out on.
What then is the selling point here? Will the city be building change in later chapters? Will your town grow bigger and get more districts to build in so you can have more than 9 buildings in each? Will you actually be able to have a replica of your glorious capital to walk around in, in game, with looks to represent your kingdoms character and layout lifted straight from how you designed it in the building interface (so if I build a barracks on main street and opposite it a temple, when I walk down main street I will walk between a temple and the barracks), is that even possible considering the cookie cutter ultra-simplistic grid system it features?
IN SHORT. For the people who like it this way, my problems with this game are 3 fold.
- The construction of a capital/ empire is severely lacking and just reminded me more of an online freemium game than anything else. The events have potential, but what if a chosen minister is not there to solve a said event? Do you as the King not have any emergency solution to call upon? Can you not take time out of your adventures to go there yourself? The system itself has a very bad introduction and first impression is what I’m saying.
- The story. It’s just there to be honest. I don’t how I could describe it better. Sure some interesting things pop up here and there (later) but the rest feels shallow and not even remotely worth our time. Paper thin characters, and childish story for the most part. Maybe it gets better when we reach the Kingdom part. But a bad first impression is a hard thing to shake, ESPECIALY considering the 2-hour refund period of steam, if the first impression is bad, people can’t afford to see if it “gets good later”.
- This game was designed for RP right? Because I sure as hell don’t see it. Options should not be binary choices. I mean IF I want to be chaotic good, what I should I choose in the tutorial? Chaotic evil? Lawful neutral? I betray my alignment no matter what I choose. This feels oddly restrictive and predefined to force you to “game” the system to keep the alignment you want/start with by making decisions not for RP reasons, but because they give you the correct points to stay in alignment. Basically, the choices read like they were made for a binary moral system, not the dual axis of law-chaos and good-evil pathfinder has.
Thank you for taking the time to read this… review? I don’t know what I should call it but here it is. And I hope we will get more stuff reworked, especially the construction /empire system.

[kreivi]

It is written here in steam in another thread that kingdom was made like an companion / extra party member. So there is bit more "flesh" then back at a time when Kingmaker AP was released.

But we have to consider allso another side. How much story can developer really tell before game is released?

Luckily for those who are not yet sure if to buy this game or not there is allways option to wait for game previews. Not some alpha or beta youtube videos (yes, they are great but they have plenty of stuff missing) but real professional tester opinnions. People who write and play these kind of games in they work. They will tell if there is enough story, enough deepness in kingdom building. Enough options/variety with class/ability/feat/spell/companion and so on.

After all if some developer would say "honestly" that "yes, I do enjoy playing this game we are making but I can not tell you more from story or kingdom build side" it would most likely just make people ask more or start "naturally they say so, they are working for the company" kind of talk.

When 20 year have come from release we will know if this game is as loved as Baldur's Gate was today.. ..not before.

[thainen]

>should I consider this the position from the developer as well?
Well, I'm a developer who wrote the intro section's dialogues, so... Yes?

>Please remember this is a game designed for people who are interested in reading a good story and who mostly play games such as pathfinder or at least in the same region.
Yes, I know. After all, I'm one of the people who made it with this exact audience in mind. So your point is?

>Oh and you didn’t touch the subject of Kingdom building.
I don't know much about it, sorry. Maybe one of our game designers drops in and says something about it. I didn't even write text for the kingdom, so I can't tell you anything about the way it works in the final game. The only thing I know is that it was, of course, improved since the Beta days.

>Please provide me with a firm reply for all 3 points that I have already mentioned.
Here's my firm reply: don't judge a game solely by its tutorial, chapter zero. Yes, the first impression matters a lot, but it's still just the first 30 minutes out of 80 hours. It's linear and simplistic by design, because it's there to give the newcomers an idea of things to come. Once the chapter 1 starts, you get more complicated moral choices, more room to role-play and more consequences to your actions.

>I assume no prior statistic study was made before making the game?
You assume wrong. Of course, we did do some research before starting this project that took two years and costed a couple millions of dollars. Sorry, I can't tell you the details.

[GrandMajora]

T.G.2theResQ lähetti viestin:

Please remember this is a game designed for people who are interested in reading a good story

As I've said, the story seems pretty good. The last beta covered the first 3 chapters of the game, and I'm interested to see what happens next. :)


A crazy Druid, who abuses his powers to seize control of the Stolen Lands, and commands a gang of bandits to do his bidding.

A cult of Lamashtu, who plans to sacrifice your people in order to bring forth an army of monsters from the First World.

And an ancient Lich, who imprisons the souls of one of your neighboring baronies while leading an army of undead cyclopes!

[Grifta]

If you have played ANY adventure path (premade campaign) in ANY format, this is what the first session (~3-4 hours on paper or 1-2 hours on computer) looks like. You get railroaded into the first mission, so that you can get an idea of the world, and get into the story-line. THEN, it opens up.

Could you give us an example of a CRPG that meets your expectations?

[Duran]

Well then, sad, but thank you for your time none the less.
I for one do not believe a new player base is what will make this game profitable, but hey just a random “old gamers” opinion.
In regards to the comments. First of all, thank you for your time but I am sad to see how many of you choose poor quality just to satisfy the illusion created by something so little and undeserved as hype.
We feel too much we think too little these days sadly.

With that I will take my leave. I wish you all the best.

[Grifta]

Cool, so;

-Show up.
-Crap all over the game based on the tutorial scene and beta visuals of the kingdom building.
-Disregard all answers to your comments and questions.
-Don't provide a single example of a CRPG that meets your expectations.
-Crap all over the devs again.
-Leave.

Did I miss anything?

[GrandMajora]

T.G.2theResQ lähetti viestin:

I am sad to see how many of you choose poor quality just to satisfy the illusion created by something so little and undeserved as hype.

I am sad to see how massively you have judged the game based on a single event that takes place in the friggin tutorial level. Yes, we can see Tartucio's sudden, but inevitable betrayal coming from a mile away. But it's sure as hell not going to classify as a deal breaker for what is otherwise shaping up to be a fun experience!

[Duran]

Yes, your point. Your argument is only a byproduct of feelings and little to no thought process.
Did I crap on the devs? No. I only criticized the quality of their product, and I NEVER insulted them. If you felt offended for them, or if they themselves felt offended, then… just don’t make mediocre stuff and expect to be praised for it. Is it really that hard to accept criticisms?
To limit this rage train, I will only add 3 more points to this.
1. This game was sold with the idea that Chris Avellone is the writer, and if it is only a collaboration with him on some aspects of the game, then as you did not specify you are as well open to criticisms regarding the story. Because we expect some quality to it. From Start to End. Remember we have the right to drop a game in 2 hours, so no. Oh and you wanted examples KOTOR2 and Mask of the betrayer, you know other works from Avellone? This “tutorial” is an insult, but I for one do not insult other people just because I feel insulted myself.
2. Second Point the Kingdom/City builder (third major selling point) we have better online games, beta or no beta, the mechanics are shallow and uninteresting and that will not change, despite the graphics. Or did you not see the link that was provided in this thread?
3. The game feels just unfocused. We have on one hand generic heroes for adventuring which have no real relevance in the Kingdom making part. And on the other we have the actual Kingdom building which as already above stated is shallow. If it was sold as a generic CRPG with some Avellone writing in some core parts of the story, I would say ok. But this is Kingmaker. Why did we choose this adventure path in the first place?
So what are we buying?

[Grifta]

Right, so Avellone has written a full bonus chapter, and has been a consultant on all parts of the story. It doesn't state anywhere that he's the lead writer on the whole project, nor is it implied. Also, Paizo has approve most if not all of the writing in this game. On your referenced games;
-KOTOR2 was a sequel that also has a railroaded tutorial that wasn't really interesting for the first few hours.
-Mask of the Betrayer is a DLC that starts you at ~ level 20 and assumes that you've already played about 60 hours. So that can just jump right into the action and treat you based on your decisions in the main game. I'm happy to pit that against the quality of this game 60 hours in.

Yes, the kingdom building portion of the game has been done better in other games that are only kingdom building. Congratulations. The rules are a near direct port from the Pathfinder kingdom building rules with some improvements, which is what basically everyone who plays Pathfinder wanted this game to do.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/kingdomsAndWar.html

This is Pathfinder, I'm sorry that you think it's generic, but there is an extensive amount of interesting references and lore even in the tutorial that I feel that you missed. And this isn't external, all of the interesting pieces have linked footnote style blurbs about organizations and people.


If you're just here to be outraged, then there's not point continuing, and you're going to miss out on a great game. If you are actually interested in the game, then stick around and take a look at the finished product without trying to find some 60 hour experience in the first 1-2 hours.

Best of luck.

[thainen]

I think there's nothing more to add here. Locking the thread.