FIX THIS! Sneak Attack and Flanking Breaks the Game

[hannibal]

I am disappointed that the developers broke their own game by making it so easy to Sneak Attack and Flank opponents. I am so pissed I have to banish Octavia from my party and I just decided to respec to remove any outflanking feats in my party. I will purge theifs in the party.

This ♥♥♥♥ is broken, and shame on the devs for ruining an excellent game with such a bad implementation.

They did a great job in being faithful to pathfinder but this seems like they just got lazy in the end.

And for those who enjoy it. What is the fun in cheating? Even if enemy AI can flank easily they always go for your tank. This makes the game too easy and I'm playing on Challenging.

[OnlyOffensive]

引用自 hamidious：

And for those who enjoy it. What is the fun in cheating? Even if enemy AI can flank easily they always go for your tank. This makes the game too easy and I'm playing on Challenging.

And that's not "exactly" the truth, AI is actuallly pretty smart here. Sure they initially focus your tank, but they switch from it if they don't hit tank or other characters pose more threat.

[Riftwalker]

引用自 FullmetalWinry：

Also, is Stealth the only thing you think about? Signature Skill is great for Intimidate, Bluff, Craft, Use Magic Device, Perception, and many others. It does make the rogue a real skill monkey and truly better at that than other classes.

Bluff - may still be impossible, and two, there's very few things more suspicious when a detect alignment array returns no alignment. vigalente can pretend to be one single other alignment and doesn't have a chance to fail.
"Retry? If you fail to deceive someone, any further checks made to deceive them are made at a –10 penalty and may be impossible (GM discretion)."
Craft - i'm going to be honest, i've never had a GM use the craft rules as shown. but yeah, this one is potentially a time saver.
UMD - only thing of import is the pretend to be 2 races or alignments thing, REALLY niche building going on there, but it is unqiue. I'd be another class and use the feat however if that was the case.
Perception is defeated by an alarm spell and for the most part, true sight. I don't know of many cases range comes into play with perception checks other than invisibility. maybe eavesdropping a convo? i'll give this some potential for being actually rogue oriented possibly.
and no, none others. they tend to pretty much suck compared to spells (JUST BE A BARD)

[Riftwalker]

引用自 OnlyOffensive：

to be completely honest, enemies use pretty much the same ruleset, and if there were "good" flanking and sneak attack no way AI would be able to use it. Sure it's very strong, but noone force you to pick it or play it, its a single player game you dont compete with anyone.

Noone gonna rework the game, especially since there is ALOT to work on instead. Dont want it, dont play it.

which is why sneak attack should be nerfed (maybe 1d4 ot 1d4-1) at least when given by flanking. if you get it from sneaking, then maybe the full 1d6.

vigalaente has an optional trait for 1d4 sneak attack from normal but 1d8 dice when done via stealth. could use something like that.

[FullmetalWinry]

引用自 Riftwalker：

(JUST BE A BARD)

I'd rather keep my rogue talents and rogue's edge, and have sneak attacks to top it off, thanks.

[Marcos_DS]

This is a computer game, i don't think SA is too powerful in comparison

* With the P&P implementation of the rules, the player could set up flanking anyway - just with more (and boring) micro. I'm not talking about P&P with a tactical DM, i'm talking about AI enemies
* Player has easily enough resources to give the SA guy improved invis
* However the enemies would probably never flank or eat OAs all the time
* Rogues are already weak compared to fighter: Fighter gets full BAB (+5 to hit) and weapon training (+5 to hit / +5 damage) and has easy access to crithunter feats. Hits more often, crits more often and potentially crits harder (esp. 2-h fighter variant).
* The rogue, who is supposed to be a striker = deals a lot of damage already has problems to fill that role compared to normal fighter. Adding the positionning bore would kill that class in the CRPG

[Riftwalker]

引用自 FullmetalWinry：

引用自 Riftwalker：

(JUST BE A BARD)

I'd rather keep my rogue talents and rogue's edge, and have sneak attacks to top it off, thanks.

FINE BE AN INVESTIGATOR! (they have everything you just said + alchemist stuff) (and they're better at skills)

[Fendelphi]

引用自 hamidious：

引用自 Fendelphi：

I havent really played around sneak attack much in this game. During a round, does every attack become a sneak attack from a rogue(or what ever) or only the first hit in that round?
Because in some iterations of DnD, it was only the first hit in a round that could be a sneak attack.
Also, sneak attacks cant crit(or atleast were not supposed to) in some iterations(the attack itself can crit but the sneak attack damage is added in the end, not as part of the crit). If the sneak attack damage is multiplied, no wonder it feels broken(I do not know if this is the case in this game. As I said, I havent really used sneak attack based characters).

If every attack in a round becomes a sneak attack, and gets multiplied by crits, then that needs to change.

Every attack becomes a sneak attack.
You only need another member in your party to attack the target in melee. This makes the target flanked and if you also attack the target in melee or shoot at them you get a sneak attack.

It is the OP and exploitable. I will work around it by avoiding rogues and feats that take advantage of Sneak attack and outflank.

Wait, so what is it then? Someone else said that it was only the first hit each round, and now you say it is every attack.

Can someone confirm with video/combat log, to avoid misinformation? Because if it is supposed to be only 1 SA per round, but a bug allows several at times, then it would explain the different statements.

[FullmetalWinry]

引用自 Marcos_DS：

This is a computer game, i don't think SA is too powerful in comparison

* With the P&P implementation of the rules, the player could set up flanking anyway - just with more (and boring) micro. I'm not talking about P&P with a tactical DM, i'm talking about AI enemies
* Player has easily enough resources to give the SA guy improved invis
* However the enemies would probably never flank or eat OAs all the time
* Rogues are already weak compared to fighter: Fighter gets full BAB (+5 to hit) and weapon training (+5 to hit / +5 damage) and has easy access to crithunter feats. Hits more often, crits more often and potentially crits harder (esp. 2-h fighter variant).
* The rogue, who is supposed to be a striker = deals a lot of damage already has problems to fill that role compared to normal fighter. Adding the positionning bore would kill that class in the CRPG

What about ranged sneak on flanked target? This is the true problem here. I think the game is more than correctly balanced on MELEE flanking sneaks. I just want the ranged flanking sneak gone, which goes completely against PnP rules.

[OnlyOffensive]

引用自 Marcos_DS：

This is a computer game, i don't think SA is too powerful in comparison

* With the P&P implementation of the rules, the player could set up flanking anyway - just with more (and boring) micro. I'm not talking about P&P with a tactical DM, i'm talking about AI enemies
* Player has easily enough resources to give the SA guy improved invis
* However the enemies would probably never flank or eat OAs all the time
* Rogues are already weak compared to fighter: Fighter gets full BAB (+5 to hit) and weapon training (+5 to hit / +5 damage) and has easy access to crithunter feats. Hits more often, crits more often and potentially crits harder (esp. 2-h fighter variant).
* The rogue, who is supposed to be a striker = deals a lot of damage already has problems to fill that role compared to normal fighter. Adding the positionning bore would kill that class in the CRPG

Nah, there are always ways to make rogues good. Dragon age actually made really fun rogues, especially in second game, all backstabs, duplicates, vanishes and combo points, super fun class. All you need to do to compensate positioning and all the tricks > increase damage compared to face-to-face fighters.

[FullmetalWinry]

FINE BE AN INVESTIGATOR! (they have everything you just said + alchemist stuff)

They don't have rogue's edge, they have half less sneak attack and half less rogue talents. I do like investigators, I'm just trying to make a case for rogue because I also like rogues a lot.

[Riftwalker]

引用自 Fendelphi：

引用自 hamidious：

Every attack becomes a sneak attack.
You only need another member in your party to attack the target in melee. This makes the target flanked and if you also attack the target in melee or shoot at them you get a sneak attack.

It is the OP and exploitable. I will work around it by avoiding rogues and feats that take advantage of Sneak attack and outflank.

Wait, so what is it then? Someone else said that it was only the first hit each round, and now you say it is every attack.

Can someone confirm with video/combat log, to avoid misinformation? Because if it is supposed to be only 1 SA per round, but a bug allows several at times, then it would explain the different statements.

you can get multiple SAs, they just have to be against a flanked target or someone who lost their dex mod to AC, like being paralyzed or blinded. flanking only required the enemy be threatened by 2 melee characters in the game.

[Riftwalker]

引用自 FullmetalWinry：

FINE BE AN INVESTIGATOR! (they have everything you just said + alchemist stuff)

They don't have rogue's edge, they have half less sneak attack and half less rogue talents. I do like investigators, I'm just trying to make a case for rogue because I also like rogues a lot.

pretty sure an investigator talent gives them sig skills(or maybe the signature skill section simply recommends also giving investigators them every 5 levels and so i do, so people don't gotta be a rogue to get it{i have the unchained book}). and you know investigators make better AND FUNNER skill rogues. nothing like having to spend an investigator point for an extea 1d6 on a skill roll when it's important. (WE NEED THIS DOOR OPEN NOW! etc.)

[FullmetalWinry]

引用自 Fendelphi：

Can someone confirm with video/combat log, to avoid misinformation? Because if it is supposed to be only 1 SA per round, but a bug allows several at times, then it would explain the different statements.

You have to differenciate SA from Stealth, and SA from flanking. SA from Stealth works correctly, that is only the first attack out of stealth or invis is a sneak attack. However, on flanking, all attacks are SA as long as the target is flanked, it will trigger on ALL attacks in the round, which is correct in melee, and works like that in PnP.

The problem is the game allows SA on Ranged attacks on flanked target, which is impossible in PnP. And since it works like in melee it does gives full attacks SA, as long as the target is being flanked by two melee allies.

SA on flat-footed also works as intended, as in you can get full attack SA as long as the target is denied its dex (blinded, paralyzed, you have improved invisibility, etc.)

[Marcos_DS]

引用自 FullmetalWinry：

What about ranged sneak on flanked target? This is the true problem here. I think the game is more than correctly balanced on MELEE flanking sneaks. I just want the ranged flanking sneak gone, which goes completely against PnP rules.

Well for me flanking means the enemy is easier to hit because he has to focus his defense attempts on multiple attack directions. An enemy that already has to focus on defending against two melee attackers would have even bigger problems to notice and defend (get dex to ac) against incoming arrows. So for me it makes sense even for ranged (ranged should not count as a flanker, but an enemy flanked by 2x melee should be a legitimate SA target for a ranged attacker). I agree the PnP rules work differently of course. But i actually prefer the CRPG rules here.

[Riftwalker]

引用自 Marcos_DS：

引用自 FullmetalWinry：

What about ranged sneak on flanked target? This is the true problem here. I think the game is more than correctly balanced on MELEE flanking sneaks. I just want the ranged flanking sneak gone, which goes completely against PnP rules.

Well for me flanking means the enemy is easier to hit because he has to focus his defense attempts on multiple attack directions. An enemy that already has to focus on defending against two melee attackers would have even bigger problems to notice and defend (get dex to ac) against incoming arrows. So for me it makes sense even for ranged (ranged should not count as a flanker, but an enemy flanked by 2x melee should be a legitimate SA target for a ranged attacker). I agree the PnP rules work differently of course. But i actually prefer the CRPG rules here.

yes but
A= ally
E= enemy

AAA
EEE

gives you flank as much as
AEA does