Recommendations for a necromancer class/sub class

[InvaderGrim]

My request is that it be more for damage less support.If possible please give your reasoning.
Thank you in advance.

[OnlyOffensive]

what is necromancer?

Why do you even need it? Just play undead sorc or caster focused on necromancy school.

[climbingeastofwinter]

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

what is necromancer?

Why do you even need it? Just play undead sorc or caster focused on necromancy school.

What he just said. If you're just looking to play a necromancer, there's a build for that: wizard with the specialty school of necromancy. You can also play a cleric of a god with the sphere of death and play a necromancer that way, or a sorceror or magus eldritch scion with the undead bloodline, or just normal sorceror or magus and spell focus: necromancy with a spellbook full of necromantic spells.

For a wiz/sorc, you're necromantic cantrip is Tough of Fatigue, first level spell would be ray of enfeeblement (which really isn't bad), second level I believe you've got ghoul touch (if it's in the game?) and blindness, third level you've got Vampiric touch, etc.

If you're playing a cleric you can channel negative energy into an aoe that harms living creatures right from level 1, and spontaneously cast inflict wounds spells. You've got options.

[Blackdragon]

Option 1: Death Channeler

Ecclesutheurge with Death and Repose domains.

Aasimar with +Wis, +Cha

Max Wis/Cha, dump Str/Int, mid Dex/Con

Alignment: Lawful for possible Monk dip (Wis or Cha to AC and Crane style), Evil for Negative Channel

Use domain spells in regular spell slots (unless this feature is still bugged, test first).

Spell Level / Name Spell School Spell List
1 - Cause Fear Necromancy Cle 1 / Inq 1 / Wiz 1
2 - Boneshaker Necromancy Cle 2 / Inq 2 / Wiz 2
3 - Bestow Curse Necromancy Cle 3 / Wiz 4
4 - Enervation Necromancy Wiz 4
5 - Slay Living Necromancy Cle 5
6 - Circle of Death Necromancy Inq 6 / Wiz 6
7 - Destruction Necromancy Cle 7
8 - Horrid Wilting Necromancy Wiz 8
9 - Wail of the Banshee Necromancy Wiz 9

1 - Doom Necromancy Cle 1 / Inq 1
2 - Scare Necromancy Wiz 2
3 - Vampiric Touch Necromancy Wiz 3
4 - Death Ward Necromancy Cle 4 / Inq 4 / Dru 5
5 - Slay Living Necromancy Cle 5
6 - Undeath to Death Necromancy Cle 6 / Inq 6 / Wiz 6
7 - Destruction Necromancy Cle 7
8 - Waves of Exhaustion Necromancy Wiz 7
9 - Wail of the Banshee Necromancy Wiz 9

Feats:
Selective Channel, Extra Channel
Necromancy SF/GSF, Spell Specialisation (best damaging Necro spell), Spell Pen.

Resume: Most "Necromantic" build of all, combining both Arcane and Divine necromancy (and doing it way better than the pitiful Mystic Theurge), but tricky to play due to lack of armor and multiple ability dependency, plus possibly bugged.

Option 2: Death Wizard

Thassilonian Specialist (Gluttony) 9/Vivisectionist 1/Arcane Trickster 10

Race: Elf (+Dex, +Int, free profs, skill boosts)

Feats: Necromancy SF/GSF, Spell Spec, Spell Pen.

Resume: The most powerful build damage-wise due to stacking sneak attack on top of spell damage. Still lagging behind evokers in full damage potential.

Option 3: Undead Master

Cleric with Death and Evil domains
Use Animate Dead/Extended AD, Create Undead (unless still bugged).

Resume: the 'undead army" build. Likely not as powerful as regular summon builds due to lack of special bonuses.
_____



The key to playing a Necromancer is understanding these things:

1. Necromancy spells are either Save-or-Suck (low levels, and generally trash), or pseudo-Save-or-Die (high levels, and generally good), so you need to boost your spell DC any way possible.

2. Necromancy spells are not elemental, so do not benefit from Elemental Spell Focus, elemental damage boosts (such as Draconic Arcana), and some of them don't have variable damage dice, so no effect from Maximise/Empower metamagic as well. However, their top damage spells are 10/caster level, so it's like they're already empowered, maximised and with a damage bonus. The drawback is that they don't give half damage on a save (unlike evocation), so a save is basically a failure for the spell.

3, Necromancy undead are not regular summons, they do not benefit from any summoning feats and subclasses. However, Animate Dead is a fairly powerful spell at lower levels. I havent tested Create Undead, but heard it's bugged.

4. Negative channel does not damage living and heal undead at the same time, it's one or the other.

Overall, Necromancy in this game has great potential, but in comparison to other options is a bit lacking in power. PnP Necromancers compensated by having true permanent Animate Dead, Control Undead etc. Here, though, Necromancers take a step back to Evokers in the DPS arena, and to varior summoning archetypes in the minion arena. Nevertheless, if you don't mind being a bit behind top-of-the-line optimised builds, there are plenty of ways to play a Necromancer.

For bonus points, make yourself an Undead. There's a guide ; )

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

you missed summon skeletons

You mean Animate Dead? It's there.

[OnlyOffensive]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

you missed summon skeletons

You mean Animate Dead? It's there.

yea i missed your last build. I think you can pick skeletons in any build. Necromancer without raising dead seems kinda weird. And the 3d level animate dead is really powerfull for it time.

[InvaderGrim]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Option 1: Death Channeler

Ecclesutheurge with Death and Repose domains.

Aasimar with +Wis, +Cha

Max Wis/Cha, dump Str/Int, mid Dex/Con

Alignment: Lawful for possible Monk dip (Wis or Cha to AC and Crane style), Evil for Negative Channel

Use domain spells in regular spell slots (unless this feature is still bugged, test first).

Spell Level / Name Spell School Spell List
1 - Cause Fear Necromancy Cle 1 / Inq 1 / Wiz 1
2 - Boneshaker Necromancy Cle 2 / Inq 2 / Wiz 2
3 - Bestow Curse Necromancy Cle 3 / Wiz 4
4 - Enervation Necromancy Wiz 4
5 - Slay Living Necromancy Cle 5
6 - Circle of Death Necromancy Inq 6 / Wiz 6
7 - Destruction Necromancy Cle 7
8 - Horrid Wilting Necromancy Wiz 8
9 - Wail of the Banshee Necromancy Wiz 9

1 - Doom Necromancy Cle 1 / Inq 1
2 - Scare Necromancy Wiz 2
3 - Vampiric Touch Necromancy Wiz 3
4 - Death Ward Necromancy Cle 4 / Inq 4 / Dru 5
5 - Slay Living Necromancy Cle 5
6 - Undeath to Death Necromancy Cle 6 / Inq 6 / Wiz 6
7 - Destruction Necromancy Cle 7
8 - Waves of Exhaustion Necromancy Wiz 7
9 - Wail of the Banshee Necromancy Wiz 9

Feats:
Selective Channel, Extra Channel
Necromancy SF/GSF, Spell Specialisation (best damaging Necro spell), Spell Pen.

Resume: Most "Necromantic" build of all, combining both Arcane and Divine necromancy (and doing it way better than the pitiful Mystic Theurge), but tricky to play due to lack of armor and multiple ability dependency, plus possibly bugged.

Option 2: Death Wizard

Thassilonian Specialist (Gluttony) 9/Vivisectionist 1/Arcane Trickster 10

Race: Elf (+Dex, +Int, free profs, skill boosts)

Feats: Necromancy SF/GSF, Spell Spec, Spell Pen.

Resume: The most powerful build damage-wise due to stacking sneak attack on top of spell damage. Still lagging behind evokers in full damage potential.

Option 3: Undead Master

Cleric with Death and Evil domains
Use Animate Dead/Extended AD, Create Undead (unless still bugged).

Resume: the 'undead army" build. Likely not as powerful as regular summon builds due to lack of special bonuses.
_____



The key to playing a Necromancer is understanding these things:

1. Necromancy spells are either Save-or-Suck (low levels, and generally trash), or pseudo-Save-or-Die (high levels, and generally good), so you need to boost your spell DC any way possible.

2. Necromancy spells are not elemental, so do not benefit from Elemental Spell Focus, elemental damage boosts (such as Draconic Arcana), and some of them don't have variable damage dice, so no effect from Maximise/Empower metamagic as well. However, their top damage spells are 10/caster level, so it's like they're already empowered, maximised and with a damage bonus. The drawback is that they don't give half damage on a save (unlike evocation), so a save is basically a failure for the spell.

3, Necromancy undead are not regular summons, they do not benefit from any summoning feats and subclasses. However, Animate Dead is a fairly powerful spell at lower levels. I havent tested Create Undead, but heard it's bugged.

4. Negative channel does not damage living and heal undead at the same time, it's one or the other.

Overall, Necromancy in this game has great potential, but in comparison to other options is a bit lacking in power. PnP Necromancers compensated by having true permanent Animate Dead, Control Undead etc. Here, though, Necromancers take a step back to Evokers in the DPS arena, and to varior summoning archetypes in the minion arena. Nevertheless, if you don't mind being a bit behind top-of-the-line optimised builds, there are plenty of ways to play a Necromancer.

For bonus points, make yourself an Undead. There's a guide ; )

Thanks a ton mate, any chance for a link to the guide

[OnlyOffensive]

also you can play undead sorc with focus on necromancy. You are kinda half-undead yourself with gift of death, incorporeal form and even "one of us" if you manage to get to 20.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by InvaderGrim:

Thanks a ton mate, any chance for a link to the guide

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/9nk52o/do_you_wish_to_become_undead_yes_we_can/

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1536881218

Have a happy unlife ; )

Frankly I was disappointed at this not being officially included in the game. Especially when we have an NPC companion tantalizingly flaunting her undead traits from level 1. In PnP it's fairly common for casters especially to step into undeath around mid-game (or even earlier, like chartering a teleport to Nocturnus as soon as you can afford to pay for crucimigration).

Considering Necromacy is generally an underpowered choice in Kingmaker, I'd say this is fair compensation ; )

[Shadenuat]

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

also you can play undead sorc with focus on necromancy. You are kinda half-undead yourself with gift of death, incorporeal form and even "one of us" if you manage to get to 20.

Sorc has nearly not enough big spell selection to plug the holes in Necromancy.

I'd say while Wizard "necromantic" abilities kinda suck, if choosing between Wizard or Sorc, go Wizard anyway. Combine Conjuration + Necromancy for an option to have summons on every level, and having offensive and CC spells on early (Snowball) and mid (Stinking Cloud, Acid Blast) levels. Closer to 2d part of the game, invest into Necromancy and Spell Penetration, because levels 7-8 is when the actuall nice Necro-stuff comes into play (before that best you can do is Boneshatter everything).

[OnlyOffensive]

Originally posted by Shadenuat:

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

also you can play undead sorc with focus on necromancy. You are kinda half-undead yourself with gift of death, incorporeal form and even "one of us" if you manage to get to 20.

Sorc has nearly not enough big spell selection to plug the holes in Necromancy.

I'd say while Wizard "necromantic" abilities kinda suck, if choosing between Wizard or Sorc, go Wizard anyway. Combine Conjuration + Necromancy for an option to have summons on every level, and having offensive and CC spells on early (Snowball) and mid (Stinking Cloud, Acid Blast) levels. Closer to 2d part of the game, invest into Necromancy and Spell Penetration, because levels 7-8 is when the actuall nice Necro-stuff comes into play (before that best you can do is Boneshatter everything).

He gets some bonus spells from bloodline though and they all themed. Also he gets unique grasping hands, pretty cannon spell for necromancers.

Spell penetration is nearly useless feat, especially early. There are simply no creatures with SR at those levels.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

also you can play undead sorc with focus on necromancy. You are kinda half-undead yourself with gift of death, incorporeal form and even "one of us" if you manage to get to 20.

That is frankly a weak choice. Undead bloodline doesn't give a damage bonus to your spells, so it's already suboptimal. Its power of affecting undead with mind spells is useless to a Necromancer, since mind spells are Enchantment. And its capstone simply adds a few immunities, something every other capstone does, including Draconic; plus it comes so late it's barely even relevant.

Become undead at level 1 and save yourself the hassle. Doubly good for Clerics and Sorcs since your HP and Fort saves are now calculated from your Cha, not Con (which you can safely dump).

[OnlyOffensive]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

also you can play undead sorc with focus on necromancy. You are kinda half-undead yourself with gift of death, incorporeal form and even "one of us" if you manage to get to 20.

That is frankly a weak choice. Undead bloodline doesn't give a damage bonus to your spells, so it's already suboptimal. Its power of affecting undead with mind spells is useless to a Necromancer, since mind spells are Enchantment. And its capstone simply adds a few immunities, something every other capstone does, including Draconic; plus it comes so late it's barely even relevant.

Become undead at level 1 and save yourself the hassle. Doubly good for Clerics and Sorcs since your HP and Fort saves are now calculated from your Cha, not Con (which you can safely dump).

well gift of death is an early stuff and gives DR/magic, which is pretty good early. I mean it probably worse than a moded stuff, but i considered it based on original game.

What about grasping hands and incorporeal form? They sound amazing, especially form.

[Shadenuat]

Spell penetration is nearly useless feat, especially early. There are simply no creatures with SR at those levels.

Closer to 2d part of the game, invest into Necromancy and Spell Penetration, because levels 7-8 is when the actuall nice Necro-stuff comes into play

[OnlyOffensive]

damn i could've sworn i read invest in spell penetration early, my mistake. But yeah it's fine later.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

That is frankly a weak choice. Undead bloodline doesn't give a damage bonus to your spells, so it's already suboptimal. Its power of affecting undead with mind spells is useless to a Necromancer, since mind spells are Enchantment. And its capstone simply adds a few immunities, something every other capstone does, including Draconic; plus it comes so late it's barely even relevant.

Become undead at level 1 and save yourself the hassle. Doubly good for Clerics and Sorcs since your HP and Fort saves are now calculated from your Cha, not Con (which you can safely dump).

well gift of death is an early stuff and gives DR/magic, which is pretty good early. I mean it probably worse than a moded stuff, but i considered it based on original game.

What about grasping hands and incorporeal form? They sound amazing, especially form.

Grasping hands is just a fireball, only with slashing damage (so more resists), does not benefit from DC feats (so weaker DC), no metamagic/arcana (so less damage potential), and it's 1/day at level 9 (when your Sorc can already cast 8 fireballs and 6 controlled fireballs per rest).

Death's gift comes early true, and DR 5/magic can be helpful at lower levels, but it becomes useless as soon as most enemies begin using magic and enchanted weapons. It does nothing for your offensive power, and frankly if you're being hit as a Sorcerer you're already doing something wrong (like bad positioning, lack of protective spells, lack of meatshields etc).

Incorporeal form comes at level 15 (so basically endgame if you play with full party), can only be used 1/day, and only gives 50% resist vs. magic damage. Considering at that level basically any damage you face is magic, and how much damage late-game monsters can do vs. your squishy sorc HP, it's not a game-changer of any kind.

So in general, Undead bloodline is just a few minor survivability buffs with very little to offer your offensive powers, which are the lynchpin of your character as an Arcane caster. Compared to Draconic bloodlines it is frankly weaker. Which is why I'd rather suggest playing Arcane necromancers on the Wizard chassis.

If you want tasty fluff, look no further than a Thassilonian Undead wizard. Considering the history of Thassilon (basically Golarion's Netheril), you can play him as an ancient lich cursed to forget his arcane powers, and slowly regaining them back as he levels up (so a Nameless One kind of deal). Think about the amount of roleplaying you could get out of that ; )