Undeath to Death: One of those trashy HD spells

[Shadenuat]

Now I'm not saying all HD spells are bad, hell, some of them for early levels are quite decent. But this one in particular has a funny life (death?) path in this game.

You see, it is a 6th level spell which you get on level 11, moment you enter Varnhold Vanishing chapter, and which (spoiler) has a lot of undead in it. It is a very specialized spell in not the best school (and game heavily lacks in scroll selection to scribe), and it slays undead creatures unless they're 9 HD or higher - then it doesn't affect them. Now I think you already notice an issue - you gain this on level 11... but it doesn't affect anything higher than level 9. And knowing Owlcats, they're won't be throwing low level junk at us if we are already level 11 or 12.

And true enough, the chapter is full of zombie cyclops, who are literally around every corner, so let's see what are they all about as per actual module book:

Dread zombie cyclops (2) Cr 6
XP 2,400 each
hp 65, 44 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 52, Advanced Bestiary 105)

Let's check that Bestiary book talks about:

Cyclops CR 5
XP 1,600
NE Large humanoid (giant)
Init –1; Senses low-light vision; Perception +11
DEfEnSE
AC 19, touch 8, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, –1 Dex, +7 natural, –1
size)
hp 65 (10d8+20) <<<<<<

Well woopsie do, just enough to not be ever affected by that spell we just got! (And yeah, I tried the spell in the game too, to no effect). Although in the game I believe they have even more hit points.

Now, you can kill some lower level skeletons with it (assuming they don't pass their Will saves), but so can a Fireball.

What I am getting at here? I think sometimes, when you are making a CRPG, you might want to re-balance some things and make them actually useful.

[Locklave]

If you plan on doing this for every stupid poorly thought out spell then you will be very busy.

Pathfinder was ahead of it's time at the time. That's not so true all these years later.

[OnlyOffensive]

i think that spell is a common for D&D aswell. It was pretty good in neverwinter or smth, due to alot of trash undead mixing with stronger ones. Sure you can't kill liches with it, but it helped with annoying masses.

[Babbles]

That spell shoulnd't be in the game from a DMD viewpoint - a level 3 undead Tartuk should cause more havoc than a undead level 5 fighter.

[Shadenuat]

Well in PnP you can probably face some hordes of skellingtons and the module itself has more lower level creatures. Not so true for adaptation.

Another spell which made me scratch my head is Bestow the Grace of the Champion. It's a 7th level spell which gives immunity to fear and disease... and adds CHA to saving throws. The last part is p. good for Magus/Sorcerer, but... 7th level?
In PnP it actually gives a whole Paladin-package and is pretty neat, but in game it simply lacks the PnP effects to be of any worth.

Then there's Mind Blank which is 8th level and gives +8 against mind spells, except it actually doesn't because it does not stack with +resistance items like cloaks, so it's only +5 or so. The PnP version does more again, but without all the PnP baggage it is nearly not as good. Then again, Octavia is smart enough to make Abjuration her opposition school so - don't even need that!

Then there is Protection from Evil which is basically "cast this unless you have Ring of Protection +2", and quite obvious lack of Spell Deflection and similar spells etc. But I digress.

Thing is, fixing all this doesn't require full implementation of PNP rules; just maybe tweaking spells a bit - in the same way Spell Revisions tweaked some BG spells.

There are a ton of undead trash enemies towards the end of the Varnhold chapter. the spell might work on those.

There are 2 rooms of skellingtons and, again, Fireball works just as well. A specialization spell should be more powerful than common instruments. You want it to counter tough ♥♥♥♥ , and counter it hard. Otherwise it's just not a good choice.

[raubrey]

The spell is very over-powered in some games, like Neverwinter 2, which is fine with me because I hate undead status effects from certain undead.

I don't really see the point of the post other than you crunched some PnP math and it didn't work out. Cleric, melee, ranger, bard and the large accumulation of fire wands and spells was more than enough. If I would have brough a spell caster it would have been for summons, buffs etc. rather than a couple casts of a spell that may or may not work. I didn't want to depend on a rest-heavy party either.

[Fahrenheit41]

Originally posted by Locklave:

If you plan on doing this for every stupid poorly thought out spell then you will be very busy.

QFT

Seriously, so many absolutely useless spells in this game. It's like no one even playtested this game at all.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by Fahrenheit41:

Originally posted by Locklave:

If you plan on doing this for every stupid poorly thought out spell then you will be very busy.

QFT

Seriously, so many absolutely useless spells in this game. It's like no one even playtested this game at all.

Similarly useless spells were in Baldur's Gate games and NWN. Like anyone ever used Virtue. It's a product of 3.5 being a horribly balanced system, something the diehard fans refuse to accept but past and future editions have made perfectly clear. The problem is D&D had such a surge of popularity with 3rd edition that many Pathfinder fans have never played any other version or any other RPG to compare.

[Graygan]

Meh... just look at the spells most used in PnP... the vast majority of spells are never used. The common ones are buffs first and foremost, because they make the whole party stronger. The next ones most used are the CC spells because they make the whole party stronger. The least used spells are the direct damage blast spells.... with certain exceptions... and even those are almost always the basic ones... cone shapes for swarms, touch for magi, ranged touch for sorcs and archer magi.

Sometimes... rarely... when you're just screwing around, you can drop walls of fire and other stuff, but that just slows things down.

Although... in Pathfinder PnP... for me... the best spells are the various pit spells. They are CC spells that also do damage. So much fun.

[Kommissar K]

Originally posted by Shadenuat:

Well in PnP you can probably face some hordes of skellingtons and the module itself has more lower level creatures. Not so true for adaptation.

I clearly recall several fights in Vordekai's tomb where that would of helped.

As well, the logic here is really quite the opposite. In a video game, there is no human DM having to keep track of all these creatures. This game is far more likely to throw hordes of trash at you, merely because it can.

[Shadenuat]

Originally posted by Fahrenheit41:

Originally posted by Locklave:

If you plan on doing this for every stupid poorly thought out spell then you will be very busy.

QFT

Seriously, so many absolutely useless spells in this game. It's like no one even playtested this game at all.

Well a man has to do his thing and all that. No amount of work too great to a path of arcane power, and no amount of whining to developers is too little.

One other example that I think would be important to fix is, late game enemies have Petrification, but apparently nothing works agains that since there is no Stone to Flesh spell in the game.

[Vesemir]

Now there are some stone to flesh scrolls from the usual town merchant for sure