Please fix enemy balance

[Meltdown]

Ok so long time fan of Pathfinder, and of course DnD and those that came before. Startefd play on Challenging, went through the opening fins, but then it was getting too hard, so kicked it to normal. And everything was fine then I started coming across monsters that were just insane on AC levels. I mean I'm coming across wolves with AC of 18 on level 2 characters. A wolf, even a Dire wolf is 14 (base 10, +2 reflexes, +2 natural armor). Fine I push through them, do the Old Sycamore and everything is back to easy. Think maybe previously it was a fluke and what do I come across? Skeletal Champions with AC of 25..... Seriously? They are supposed to be 21 max with shield, otherwise about 19.

You guys have really got to fix the balance. PnP is balanced, and it has had years to get there. What sense does it make to say 'yeah let's do the character stats and abilities the same, but buff the enemites up so they can't even be hit by proper level characters'. I figured I would try using a cleric to help so I loaded back to before I missed the ancient tomb, went there to get the dwarf and what happens? All of those enemies are AC 25+ and one shotting the tanks. This is insane guys. And this isn't a "git gud" moment. Outside of rolling a Nat 20 there is no way to hit them.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1540981342

There is the wolf. And the AC 25 Skel

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1540982945

So how exactly is someone supposed to hit those, given the initial stats of the characters give them at most +3 to hit?

[OnlyOffensive]

If normal suits your vision of balance, play it what a problem? To be fair, challenging and above have a description that your builds must be perfect and you have to rely on dice.

There are ways of hitting them. Color spray/hideous laughter fear etc etc. Potions, bless buffs etc.

I've finished act 1 on hard without much trouble even with initial jaethal/harrim ( basically no tank ). Color spray did most of the work, probably would've alot of trouble without it.

[Meltdown]

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

If normal suits your vision of balance, play it what a problem? To be fair, challenging and above have a description that your builds must be perfect and you have to rely on dice.

No that's not what I am saying, I am saying even on Normal there are points where it is simply not possible to do. How exactly do you propose hitting an AC25 creature (of which there are 4 coming at your party) with a team where you at most can have a +5 to hit on 1 character (the one you make yourself) and no more than a +3 to hit on any other? There is zero way to hit a AC25 without a natural 20.

[OnlyOffensive]

color spray > enemies prone > 100% hit. Hideous laughter does the same. You have to survive first two levels on control, starting from level 3/4 you have enough attack to overcome any AC in first act with ease ( barbarian / jaethal )

[Meltdown]

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

color spray > enemies prone > 100% hit. Hideous laughter does the same. You have to survive first two levels on control, starting from level 3/4 you have enough attack to overcome any AC in first act with ease ( barbarian / jaethal )

I would say, if it requires one particular spell and one particular class to be in your party that kind of is the very definition of poorly balanced and supports my arguement. While yes you should kind of be expected to follow a specific party buid structure, dependence on one skill that makes everything trivial and anything else makes it not possible is not a good game.

[OnlyOffensive]

well you have Linzi with laughter. Spray is...agree... Also bombs do good work, i dont quite understand how they work ( dont have any alchemists ) but they seem to land regardless of AC.

Well im pretty sure people managed to overcome start on hard with most characters. I just happen to be sorc and had color spray...so it worked in my favor. Fear kinda works too, you also get free attacks of opportunity with it.

Sometimes you also need to be creative. My fight against bandits on level 2 with 4 people was something.... lets just say i ended up kiting last bandit with last surviving member on expeditious retreat and trying to hit him.

[Iridescence]

Turn down the difficulty for that fight and then turn it back up or level up/buff up to increase your ability to hit them...or just reload over and over til you get it. Sadly I don't think they're even going to be spending much time on things like tuning difficulty while the latter part of the game is so horiffically bugged that many can't even play.

[Trip]

For what its worth, this topic has been debated back and forth allot already. My personal opinion is that they assumed the player was going to run a "legendary min max power build' and upped difficulty accordingly while encumbering the player with some 'less then useful' NPC allies to start with at the same time.

Try this, cheat yourself some money as soon as you get to olegs with your 2nd level character, then hire yourself 3 well made mercs that make a 4 person party with good synergy. You will be astonished at the difference.

[Shadenuat]

I mean I'm coming across wolves with AC of 18 on level 2 characters.

BAB+2
Masterwork Weapon +1
STR +3
Rage +2
Flanking +2
Linzi +1
Bless +1

+12.

[TetchyPorpoise]

Its symptomatic of the poor balancing paradigm that owlcat seems to enjoy:
Every problem has one solution.
Wyld Hunt? Freedom of Movement
Specters? Death Ward
Early Game? Color Spray
Wisps? Resist Energy, Communal

Each of these encounters has one skill/spell which either trivializes or allows the encounter to be completed.
Compare it to something like PoE2 or DOS2 where each encounter can be completed in different ways, "there is no one answer", and the balancing paradigm in this game simply feels poorer.

[ShroudedInLight]

Those skeletons hard stonewalled me my first playthrough, but then I brought some clerics, rested, and had them channel the skeltons to death.

They are super hard for the point in time you fight them though. Especially since as undead they have undead immunities to mind affecting effects like Color Spray as well as DR/Bludgeoning reducing your damage by 5 on every attack that isn't a bludgeoning weapon/

Add in the fact that those Skeletons come in a pack of like 8, and its hard to survive them if you don't know they are coming.

I'd like to note that the game keeps doing this as you continue though, you will randomly run into things that spit large amounts of elemental damage, do absurd amounts of poison damage, drain your stats, or your levels without any prior indication or warning. These fights can vary between "oh god that sucked" and "welp, guess I'm reloading now" territory.

[Shadenuat]

Originally posted by TetchyPorpoise:

Compare it to something like PoE2 or DOS2 where each encounter can be completed in different ways

Like rotating your abilities by cooldowns just like those 200 encounters before.

Of course they can be completed in "different ways". Because they are easy.

[OnlyOffensive]

Originally posted by TetchyPorpoise:

Its symptomatic of the poor balancing paradigm that owlcat seems to enjoy:
Every problem has one solution.
Wyld Hunt? Freedom of Movement
Specters? Death Ward
Early Game? Color Spray
Wisps? Resist Energy, Communal

Each of these encounters has one skill/spell which either trivializes or allows the encounter to be completed.
Compare it to something like PoE2 or DOS2 where each encounter can be completed in different ways, "there is no one answer", and the balancing paradigm in this game simply feels poorer.

PoE2 = Concelhaut doomhammer, answer to anything. I even stunlocked beast of winter with it on PoTd lol.

[Shadenuat]

The best was PoE1 where you could use Grease equivalent to stunlock dragons.

[Star Paladin]

Like some are saying: Just change difficulty constantly, or make the perfect build characters with the perfect combo of spells, and you'll be just fine. That's crazy. The balance in this game is just crazy. PnP has been balancing game for many years, why deviate when you have PRE playtesting and beta of the rules for years, by millions of players already.

[Shadenuat]

You don't need "perfect builds" to play anything but Unfair.