Dragon Disciple/Scaled Fist?

[Inconnu]

It seems like a Sorc/Scaled Fist/Dragon Disciple would be a good combo, but I'm not sure how it could work out. Would the unarmed bonus apply to claw attacks and/or dragon form, or would a more magic-centric build be preferable to a hybrid? Just love the idea of a dragon-themed caster that can whomp without weapons and keep up on the front line.

[GrandMajora]

Dragon Disciples get a bonus of +3 Armor Class and +4 Strength over the course of their level ups. They also get to use claws and bite attacks. So if you want to make them a martial specialist, it seems like they would be a good fit.

Unless I'm mistaken, level ups in Dragon Disciple also counts towards your Sorcerer levels in regards to learning spells. You might miss out on a few 1st, 5th and 9th level spells, but it's nothing to worry about. Especially if martial arts is what you're focusing on.

According to the Scaled Fist description, their unarmed bonus applies to "Natural" attacks. Claws and Bite are considered "Natural" weapons. :-)

Requirements for Dragon Disciple are 5 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), and the ability to spontaneously cast 1st level spells. You should unlock it by the time you reach level 6.

The only reason you need a level in Sorcerer is to give you the ability to cast 1st level spells. After that, leveling up Dragon Disciple will take care of the rest when it comes to learning new spells.

If you want to go Martial Arts build, I'd recommend 11 levels in Scaled Fist, 1 level in Sorcerer and 8 levels in Dragon Disciple.

[Inconnu]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Dragon Disciples get a bonus of +3 Armor Class and +4 Strength over the course of their level ups. They also get to use claws and bite attacks. So if you want to make them a martial specialist, it seems like they would be a good fit.

Unless I'm mistaken, level ups in Dragon Disciple also counts towards your Sorcerer levels in regards to learning spells. You might miss out on a few 1st, 5th and 9th level spells, but it's nothing to worry about. Especially if martial arts is what you're focusing on.

According to the Scaled Fist description, their unarmed bonus applies to "Natural" attacks. Claws and Bite are considered "Natural" weapons. :-)

Requirements for Dragon Disciple are 5 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), and the ability to spontaneously cast 1st level spells. You should unlock it by the time you reach level 6.

The only reason you need a level in Sorcerer is to give you the ability to cast 1st level spells. After that, leveling up Dragon Disciple will take care of the rest when it comes to learning new spells.

If you want to go Martial Arts build, I'd recommend 12 levels in Scaled Fist, 1 level in Sorcerer and 7 levels in Dragon Disciple.

Great info, thanks! Think I might just try it. Do you recommend them in that order, or would it be just as viable to start as Sorc and then go Scaled Fist until I have the Knowledge levels?

[Marcos_DS]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

To get the most use out of this build, I'd recommend 10 levels in Scaled Fist, 1 level in Sorcerer and 9 levels in Dragon Disciple.

Actually in a Sacred Fist centric combination, i would suggest to add a level of Sacred first and remove one of Dragon Disciple: Lvl 9 of Dragon Disciple only adds wings which isn't that great. It won't improve CL (3rd non-caster level of DD) and you got the last stat increase at lvl 8 already. Monk 11 however is an important level for flurry of blows, adding an extra attack at the highest attack bonus (two extra attacks from flurry).

-> 11 Scaled Fist, 1 Sorc, 8 Dragon Disciple

(same caster level, +1 attack bonus, + 1 attack, - wings)

[Astareal]

Id start off as monk for survivability. Ive been playing around with this build. You trade offense for defensive spells honestly. If you want to be a punchy dude with dragon traits, a full scaled fist might win out. If you want to be a caster that kicks ass, take more dragon disciple/eldritch knight levels.

As a straight scaled fist you will be more accurate (the str boost kinda offsets the bab loss, but at level 20 youll be a couple of points behind) and your unarmed dice (if youre unarmed will scale faster, which might lead to more damage.) Also youll get the bonus attacks and flurry faster as a monk.

Benefits of sorc and dragon disciple. Bit better saves, bit more HP and spells like mirror image and shield. You can also be self sufficient with mage armour. Its a cool build.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Inconnu:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

If you want to go Martial Arts build, I'd recommend 12 levels in Scaled Fist, 1 level in Sorcerer and 7 levels in Dragon Disciple.

Great info, thanks! Think I might just try it. Do you recommend them in that order, or would it be just as viable to start as Sorc and then go Scaled Fist until I have the Knowledge levels?

No, no, that was just an idea for by the time you hit level 20. If you wait until late game to start trying to unlock DD, then it's hardly worth the effort.

I'd make your first level Scaled Fist, so as to get the most effectiveness out of building towards martial arts. Put your second level in Sorcerer, just to get it out of the way (and obviously, pick a draconic bloodline), then put the rest of your 4 levels into Monk again.

Assuming you've been putting skill points into Arcana every level, you should unlock Dragon Disciple by level 6. At which point, I might suggest putting your next 3 levels into Dragon Disciple, and then alternating between Scaled Fist and Dragon Disciple at each level up there after, until reaching level 8 in Disciple. Then pour all your remaining levels into Scaled Fist.


Like Marcos_DS said, 8 levels in Disciple will give you all the important perks of being a disciple, while the final perk is just kind of "meh" to be honest.

Originally posted by Marcos_DS:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

To get the most use out of this build, I'd recommend 10 levels in Scaled Fist, 1 level in Sorcerer and 9 levels in Dragon Disciple.

Actually in a Sacred Fist centric combination, i would suggest to add a level of Sacred first and remove one of Dragon Disciple: Lvl 9 of Dragon Disciple only adds wings which isn't that great. It won't improve CL (3rd non-caster level of DD) and you got the last stat increase at lvl 8 already. Monk 11 however is an important level for flurry of blows, adding an extra attack at the highest attack bonus (two extra attacks from flurry).

-> 11 Scaled Fist, 1 Sorc, 8 Dragon Disciple

(same caster level, +1 attack bonus, + 1 attack, - wings)

You're right, seems I miscalculated the usefulness of their level spread. Changed my recommendations to 11 Monk, 1 Sorc, and 8 Disciple

[Kane_Severance]

Dragon disciple 10 also gives form of the dragon 2 twice per day as opposed to FotD 1 once a day. You turn into a bigger dragon with stronger attacks. You'd also get your 4th iterative attack that way.

Depends on how dragonny you want to be.

[Inconnu]

Thanks for the tips everybody, definitely gonna try that build. The wings are just an ability you can toggle and not a cosmetic feature, right? Meh. Guess it's kind of a toss up between Flurry of Blows/attack bonus and larger dragon form/times per day.

[Greygore]

Any idea if Weapon Finesse works with the monks unarmed attacks or the dragon claw ability? I was thinking I would try this class combination. Keeping my Str around 12 while boosting my Dexterity.

[Lord_WC]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

You're right, seems I miscalculated the usefulness of their level spread. Changed my recommendations to 11 Monk, 1 Sorc, and 8 Disciple

You really should rethink those monk levels. You could double (triple) down on CHA and pick up a few levels of paladin for smite and saves if you don't actually want a caster. But even then, why not pick a bard, low CL sorcs bring so little to the table.

I honestly wouldn't pick more than around 2-3 monk/8 or 10 DD (if you want wings) and the rest 7-10 to sorc. That way you'd still have 14 or 16 CL of sorc with 7 or 8th level spells.

With 1 sorc your CL would be 7, and you would miss incredible spells like (don't know which are present) GH, tenser's, true sight, simmy, greater poly, limited wish, mind blank, etc, etc. Even one of them would worth that lousy extra attack.

[dawn]

I got a rookie question. How to increase monk's attack damage? When I create a new character, should I put my points on Dex or Str? Which one effect the attack damage the most?

[TangerineOfDoom]

Originally posted by dawx465:

I got a rookie question. How to increase monk's attack damage? When I create a new character, should I put my points on Dex or Str? Which one effect the attack damage the most?

Strength.
Only Str affects unarmed damage, and its hit-chance. Dex makes ranged attacks more accurate (not more damaging), it only affects melee if you have the feat (and right weapon) for it. You should still have some dex for AC and reflex, though.

[AlexnChaos]

as someone who's running a Scaled Fist, I can say that Weapon Finess works for unarmed attacks, so that's viable, if you get a decent weapon with the Agile mod it will add Dex as Damage, though getting one that is better then your fists later on is perhaps harder then you would expect

[Valdacil]

However, if you go for more of a STR build vs. DEX build, Scaled Fist opens up Dragon Style which applies 1.5x STR dmg to your first attack. While a DEX build will give you more AC, it will cost you a feat to utilize it as your attack bonus and you'll still use STR for damage. Since Monk (Scaled Fist) gets their CHA to AC, and you're going to want high CHA for Sorcerer spell levels anyway, you can compensate for a lower DEX through CHA and focus more on STR.

I'm actually running the Monk (Scaled Fist)/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple build as my first run. I think I went: STR 14, DEX 13, CON 13, INT 13, WIS 11, CHA 18 (with a +2 to CHA from Human). I went 13 in DEX so I could take Dodge, and 13 INT so I could take things that require Combat Expertise. First level Scaled Fist, Second level Sorcerer, 4 more levels of Scaled Fist then Dragon Disciple. With an hour of Mage Armor, I have something like 22-23 AC when not fighting defensively.

[Widget]

magus scion red dragon bloodline/dragon disciple thats my end game goal

but i am curious does anyone know if the toughness feat is retroactive?

[Batailleuse]

Originally posted by Moon Doggie:

magus scion red dragon bloodline/dragon disciple thats my end game goal

but i am curious does anyone know if the toughness feat is retroactive?

It is