Enemy concealment question

[UR|Dialetheia]

Starting around the beginning of Act 2, most main quest-related enemies start getting permanent 20% concealment(monsters with "primal" prefix, demons, etc).

I've done some testing, and this concealment apparently can't be bypassed by Faerie Fire, Glitterdust, See Invisibility or even True Sight. I've yet to test Echolocation(and/or other sources of blindsight) and improved precise shot, but something tells me the result will be the same.

So, is this a bug(with concealment itself, with true sight and other abilities, etc) or a deliberate design decision?

[Antoniius]

bump. Got the same question. Any clue please?

[Ursa]

is it dispellable or does it seem to be inherent? i have also noticed it, but generally just assumed it was a blur effect cast on them at the start of the fight.

[Alias]

In DnD, there's a type of "extraplanar" concealment that cannot be bypassed by any True Seeing effect. Basically the enemy is at another plane 20% of the time, and the only way to hit it is via spells that cross the planar boundaries (Force ones).

I'm not saying this is the case in the game for certain. It could be something more trivial like enemies getting bigger in size and being concealed in dusk (although Faerie Fire ought to counter that), and I also encountered some doomspiders with 50% concealment See Invisibility helped against.

[Kain Yusanagi]

Originally posted by Alias:

In DnD, there's a type of "extraplanar" concealment that cannot be bypassed by any True Seeing effect. Basically the enemy is at another plane 20% of the time, and the only way to hit it is via spells that cross the planar boundaries (Force ones).

I'm not saying this is the case in the game for certain. It could be something more trivial like enemies getting bigger in size and being concealed in dusk (although Faerie Fire ought to counter that), and I also encountered some doomspiders with 50% concealment See Invisibility helped against.

That... actually would make sense, actually, as the Primal enemies and the Will O' Wisps are partially not on the Prime Material.

[OnlyOffensive]

have you tried dispel? I think it works on some concealment creatures.

[UR|Dialetheia]

I experimented further since then and found the "answer", just forgot to update the thread. Here's wot i found:
* True Sight does nothing. As in, not only against concealment, it's just a spell that you can cast that doesn't do anything.

* See Invisibility, Faerie Fire, Glitterdust, Dispel, Greater Dispel do nothing against this particular form of concealment that some magical beasts, fae and demons have. That may or may not be intended. Those spells will still properly combat spells from enemy casters(Blur/Displacement/Mirror Image/(Greater) Invisibility) when applicable.

3. Any means of obtaining Blindsight - Echolocation, Dragonkind II-III, some sorcerer bloodlines etc. will allow you to bypass this sort of concealment

4. Improved Precise Shot and Improved Blind Fighting also help.

P.S. I don't know for sure what they did in Pathfinder, but back in 3.0/3.5, despite years of experience, i don't remember any sort of "extraplanar concealment", unless that's meant to represent the ability to shift between planes at will, like, say, phase spiders or blink dogs have.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

True Seeing is suppose to see through concealment if it isn't doing so that needs to be reported as a bug, as true seeing is suppose to see through all forms of concealment and invisibility.

[UR|Dialetheia]

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

True Seeing is suppose to see through concealment if it isn't doing so that needs to be reported as a bug, as true seeing is suppose to see through all forms of concealment and invisibility.

It's spelled "supposed". And i already did, some time ago.

[Mr.Drow]

Possible bug however the feat improved precise shot ignores the concealment per the description.

[[TGC] MadGod]

Ah...the old spell/spell like ability/supernatural ability/extraordinary ability problem.

1. Blur and Displacement can NOT be defeated by See Invis, glitterdust since those effects point to "invisibility" effects. Blur and Displacement do not make you invisible. Blindsight, Tremorsense, True Seeing and Faerie Fire will defeat ALL effects provided by blur/displacement. (Me stupid to list FF as not working...too early.)


2. If those effects are spell like abilities, they are very much like the spell. They can be dispelled and will not work in anti-magic fields. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Spell-Like-Abilities-Sp-

3. Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled but don't work in anti-magic fields.

4. Extraordinary abilities cannot be touched by anything and always work if they can be used.

Now...there is no primal template in Pathfinder I am aware of. Templates would add Su or SLA most of the time. In the case of those primal things, I would assume that either the Adventure Path has introduced some "haha we are special" creatures that do not work according to the rules OR they have given the "unbeatable" blur effect as an extraordinary abilitiy.

Even if the effects are extraordinary abilities, they WILL be defeated by True Seeing. That spell trumps all blur/displacement effects. What true seeing CANNOT do is see through concealment like from a wall or clouds or fog or stuff like that. Tremorsense and Blindsight help with that.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Originally posted by UR|Dialetheia:

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

True Seeing is suppose to see through concealment if it isn't doing so that needs to be reported as a bug, as true seeing is suppose to see through all forms of concealment and invisibility.

It's spelled "supposed". And i already did, some time ago.

it's spelled however the ♥♥♥♥ i want to spell it when its 4am....

" You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extra-dimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet. "

It can see into other planes, and sees through all forms of concealment UNLESS it's a cloud, mist or other mundane form of concealment. If it's magical in nature of any kind true seeing see's straight through it, so no it should negate the concealment, because it's not dispelling the effect it's seeing through it.

[UR|Dialetheia]

Originally posted by TGC MadGod:

Ah...the old spell/spell like ability/supernatural ability/extraordinary ability problem.

1. Blur and Displacement can NOT be defeated by Faerie Fire, See Invis, glitterdust since those effects point to "invisibility" effects. Blur and Displacement do not make you invisible. Blindsight, Tremorsense and True Seeing will defeat ALL effects provided by blur/displacement.

2. If those effects are spell like abilities, they are very much like the spell. They can be dispelled and will not work in anti-magic fields. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Spell-Like-Abilities-Sp-

3. Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled but don't work in anti-magic fields.

4. Extraordinary abilities cannot be touched by anything and always work if they can be used.

Now...there is no primal template in Pathfinder I am aware of. Templates would add Su or SLA most of the time. In the case of those primal things, I would assume that either the Adventure Path has introduced some "haha we are special" creatures that do not work according to the rules OR they have given the "unbeatable" blur effect as an extraordinary abilitiy.

Even if the effects are extraordinary abilities, they WILL be defeated by True Seeing. That spell trumps all blur/displacement effects. What true seeing CANNOT do is see through concealment like from a wall or clouds or fog or stuff like that. Tremorsense and Blindsight help with that.

Good answer all around. Honestly, haven't even thought that they might've stuck perma-concealment as an Ex ability for those templates. True Seeing(the spell) is still bugged though. However, monsters with innate True Sight(Erinyes which you can encounter in later parts of the game) have it function just fine for them.

[Alias]

Originally posted by UR|Dialetheia:

P.S. I don't know for sure what they did in Pathfinder, but back in 3.0/3.5, despite years of experience, i don't remember any sort of "extraplanar concealment", unless that's meant to represent the ability to shift between planes at will, like, say, phase spiders or blink dogs have.

An example would be the 20% Blink[www.d20srd.org] provides even when able to observe the creature (otherwise it's 50%).

[UR|Dialetheia]

Originally posted by Alias:

Originally posted by UR|Dialetheia:

P.S. I don't know for sure what they did in Pathfinder, but back in 3.0/3.5, despite years of experience, i don't remember any sort of "extraplanar concealment", unless that's meant to represent the ability to shift between planes at will, like, say, phase spiders or blink dogs have.

An example would be the 20% Blink[www.d20srd.org] provides even when able to observe the creature (otherwise it's 50%).

Good example indeed. Thanks for reminding.