Anyone done any work for Comstar?

[Strontiumdog]

I see they are lurking about in the northern part of the map but they don't seem to want my business.

[Nine-ball]

Originally posted by Watchman:

Doesn't mean the regular supply and personnel-rotation shipments to such outlying facilities are safe. Moreover the pirates themselves already exist outside "polite society" and can't really access the HPG network anyway, nor do they have much need to either. Conversely there's some obvious incentive for them to try to knock out the local HPG station during a raid to hamper communications with possible reinforcements...

They also tend to be "mad, bad and dangerous to know" and not necessarily terribly concerned over possible reprisals.

Pirates are criminals, not criminally insane, fantics, or suicidal. And yes, pirates can, in fact, use HPG networks. ComStar is superficially neutral. As long as you don't cause trouble for them, access, and payment, are permitted.

But let's say they did raid an HPG station, despite the threat of an entire nation and the ComGuard hunting them down. We'll just assume they assemble enough ramshackle mechs and selfless pilots to take the chance. What are they going to do with the loot? They can't sell or fence it, wiser heads know that ComStar will descend upon them if they show an inkling of such technology. The Gray Death Legion had to deal with that. Nor do they understand how it works, so they can't use it for thremselves.

Where's the motive for a bunch of desperadoes and renegades? Far easier to sack unafilliated commercial transports and settlements than risk engagement with one of the Inner Sphere's most powerful forces.

You are romanticizing pirates a bit too much, I think. People don't turn to the rough life of piracy because they want to be free rogues. There are plenty of places for free rogues in society. Just look on the political or religious fringes.

No, people turn to piracy because they can't think of any better way to provide for themselves than stealing. And make no mistake, they are always in it for themselves. Otherwise, they wouldn't be stealing.

Everyone knows this, which is why "Pirates" are so plentiful in the game universe. People need something to fight, it might as well be those wretches. Even better, one can fight pirates and bandits without starting a war of any consequence.

[Incunabulum]

Originally posted by Watchman:

Given ComStar's lack of public military assets on one hand and massive economic muscle on the other it'd actually make a whole lot of sense for them to hire mercs to deal with idiots who make trouble for them despite their "untouchable" status. Pirates and other already-seriously lawless types readily come to mind as the kinds of nuisances that might require "troubleshooting", especially out in the Periphery where you can't complain to the local House representative...

ComStar doesn't have a large presence in the Periphery. There are few HPG's there - FTL coms are done by packet ships. In addition, the Periphery is dirt poor (generally) compared to the Inner Sphere. And in the Inner Sphere, pirates are not a major concern. The Houses are fully functioning governments and have most of that locked down.

Originally posted by Watchman:

Moreover the pirates themselves already exist outside "polite society" and can't really access the HPG network anyway,

*Everybody* has access to the HPG network - unless ComStar has shunned you and they don't do that lightly - if they can pay. Your average person (even pirate) *doesn't need the HPG*. Most people will never send nor receive a message through it. Its not an interstellar internet, its an interstellar telegraph. An expensive one.

And for non-time-critical messages, well those go by JumpShip. As jumpships move from system to system, they transmit and receive mail. Its part of the services they provide.

[Watchman]

Thank you for completely missing the point.

[Nine-ball]

Originally posted by Watchman:

Thank you for completely missing the point.

Empty rhetoric, ever the tool of people who cannot make a point. What was your point? You have yet to make a convincing one.

Look, Watchman, when you're wrong, you're wrong. No need to get all hung up on it, especially not here. This is Steam, the internet, nobody worth listening to is going to think any less of you for expressing your opinions.

All you need to do is support those opinions if you want anyone to respond meaningfully. Otherwise, you just look like an idiot. Clearly, you aren't an idiot, you've put some thought into this matter, but tellling everyone they are "missing the point" without explaining what that point is makes you seem all sorts of undesireable.

Try again, my friend.

[Watchman]

Originally posted by Nine-ball:

Pirates are criminals, not criminally insane, fantics, or suicidal.

I think you're rather underestimating how stupid and crazy the criminal element can be. Doubly so heavily armed criminal element in regions virtually devoid of any organised authority.
Not to mention that a fair few pirate bands started out as merc units sufficiently psychotic to get prices on their heads.

And yes, pirates can, in fact, use HPG networks. ComStar is superficially neutral. As long as you don't cause trouble for them, access, and payment, are permitted.

And who would they be sending interstellar telegram to anyway? Pretty much nobody wants to publicly associate with them and their home bases are out in the desolate lawless fringes of the Periphery where CS most definitely isn't going to plunk a HPG station at.
It's primarily their *targets* that make use of those FTL communications. It really should not need particular elaboration what kinds of ideas that detail might put in the head of a pirate lord with more ego than sense...

But let's say they did raid an HPG station, despite the threat of an entire nation and the ComGuard hunting them down. We'll just assume they assemble enough ramshackle mechs and selfless pilots to take the chance. What are they going to do with the loot? They can't sell or fence it, wiser heads know that ComStar will descend upon them if they show an inkling of such technology. The Gray Death Legion had to deal with that. Nor do they understand how it works, so they can't use it for thremselves.

Where's the motive for a bunch of desperadoes and renegades? Far easier to sack unafilliated commercial transports and settlements than risk engagement with one of the Inner Sphere's most powerful forces.

Ransom is a thing. So is grabbing everyday necessities and appliances - pirates have no use for a HPG generator itself but they might find plenty to do with (or resale value in) any number of the surrounding machinery.

They're also usually chronically short on working spaceships which is already a reason to prey on space traffic regardless of who happens to own their targets. And for that matter, trained technical personnel to keep their junk working.

There's also the practical issue that any pirate band that keeps operating for any longer length of time almost by definition has a home base somewhere out of the immediate reach of the Houses or even the bigger Periphery powers, since all those have an obvious interest in stomping them flat if they possibly can. As such reprisals aren't exactly a very major concern for them under normal circumstances - and a lot of them are in any case too desperate and/or hardened to care anyway. Career criminals in general tend to have a rather "who wants to live forever" attitude to things; it somewhat comes with the territory.

You are romanticizing pirates a bit too much, I think. People don't turn to the rough life of piracy because they want to be free rogues. There are plenty of places for free rogues in society. Just look on the political or religious fringes.

No, people turn to piracy because they can't think of any better way to provide for themselves than stealing. And make no mistake, they are always in it for themselves. Otherwise, they wouldn't be stealing.

Everyone knows this, which is why "Pirates" are so plentiful in the game universe. People need something to fight, it might as well be those wretches. Even better, one can fight pirates and bandits without starting a war of any consequence.

BT pirate bands also feature a fair number of genuine psychotics, war criminals, deserters and similar cast-offs from "legitimate" military circles - mercs gone bad is by no means an uncommon origin, paralleling only too many historical mercenaries (who readily switched to unabashed banditry between contracts) and present-day irregular militias in Third World hellholes.

"Ruthless greed", whatever its origin or cause, is in any case something of an entry requirement for the profession and not really the kind of thing that encourages wholesome behaviour or rational long-term planning.

[Nine-ball]

Originally posted by Watchman:

I think you're rather underestimating how stupid and crazy the criminal element can be. Doubly so heavily armed criminal element in regions virtually devoid of any organised authority.
Not to mention that a fair few pirate bands started out as merc units sufficiently psychotic to get prices on their heads.

Using the exception to prove the rule. If it were so, Pirates would be like Raiders in Borderlands, insane enough to attack people who can obviously beat the **** out of them.

And who would they be sending interstellar telegram to anyway? Pretty much nobody wants to publicly associate with them and their home bases are out in the desolate lawless fringes of the Periphery where CS most definitely isn't going to plunk a HPG station at.
It's primarily their *targets* that make use of those FTL communications. It really should not need particular elaboration what kinds of ideas that detail might put in the head of a pirate lord with more ego than sense...

They would be sending them to each other or their suppliers. You reall y haven't thought this through, have you?

Ransom is a thing. So is grabbing everyday necessities and appliances - pirates have no use for a HPG generator itself but they might find plenty to do with (or resale value in) any number of the surrounding machinery.

They're also usually chronically short on working spaceships which is already a reason to prey on space traffic regardless of who happens to own their targets. And for that matter, trained technical personnel to keep their junk working.

Well, they do try to hijack Jumpships on a regular basis, and they do practice slavery, but no state willl pay pirates ransom under the the Ares Conventions. That's why you never see it in the lore. 3 decades of it, and not once has there ever been a book containing rules for pirate ransom. Only the ransom of nobles or other valued personnel as prisoners of war.

[quote-] There's also the practical issue that any pirate band that keeps operating for any longer length of time almost by definition has a home base somewhere out of the immediate reach of the Houses or even the bigger Periphery powers, since all those have an obvious interest in stomping them flat if they possibly can. As such reprisals aren't exactly a very major concern for them under normal circumstances - and a lot of them are in any case too desperate and/or hardened to care anyway. Career criminals in general tend to have a rather "who wants to live forever" attitude to things; it somewhat comes with the territory.[/qtuote]

You're maing my argument for me, again with your insistence that the pirates aren't particularly inclined to value their own lives, while they somehow desire profit for those lives. See how that's a problem?

BT pirate bands also feature a fair number of genuine psychotics, war criminals, deserters and similar cast-offs from "legitimate" military circles - mercs gone bad is by no means an uncommon origin, paralleling only too many historical mercenaries (who readily switched to unabashed banditry between contracts) and present-day irregular militias in Third World hellholes.

"Ruthless greed", whatever its origin or cause, is in any case something of an entry requirement for the profession and not really the kind of thing that encourages wholesome behaviour or rational long-term planning.

You're a socialist, aren't you? I can sense it.

[GM Pax]

Originally posted by Watchman:

Originally posted by GM Pax:

... ComStar whispers in the ear of the Great House(s) nearest that Pirate, and before too long, said Pirate is in an unmarked grave, along with everyone who ever even had a drink with her.

The Houses don't generally send forces far into Periphery, and moreover in some cases CANNOT - the FedSun/Taurian border comes to mind as an effective "DO NOT CROSS" line and one fairly relevant to the game area at that.

So, yes, much more practical to contact local operators.

In the case of an actual Periphery nation, then it's THEIR ear that ComStar whispers into, and it's (for example) Taurian Concordat troops putting that pirate in an unmarked grave. ::shrug::

Because that whisper, by the way, amounts to "go deal with that person, or maybe we have to curtail HPG services in <large area> ... in the interests of proper security, and all, of course ..." :)

[Watchman]

Originally posted by Nine-ball:

Using the exception to prove the rule. If it were so, Pirates would be like Raiders in Borderlands, insane enough to attack people who can obviously beat the **** out of them.

A complete strawman. They'd be very short-lived idiots indeed to attack anything that looks like it has a decent chance to fight back under ordinary circumstances, as opposed to exploiting their mobility to hit "soft" targets and disappearing into the lawless wilds of Periphery before reinforcements and retaliation arrives.

They would be sending them to each other or their suppliers. You reall y haven't thought this through, have you?

The "pirate havens" way out in periphery obviously don't have HPG stations and even more obviously the mobile pirate bands don't have JumpShip based ones (that's pure lostech). The pirate bands also tend to be rather self-contained and autonomous and have little reason to communicate with each other away from their "home grounds", not that they'd be able to keep track of each others' locations anyway.

And WHAT suppliers? Any business dealings an outsider has with them will be very hush-hush and under the table, probably based on discrete contacts in the local underworld. Their home planets are underdeveloped backwaters with very limited industry and indeed getting supplies they can't source domestically is a major motivation for many raiders in the first place - whether they use them themselves or give or sell to others isn't terribly relevant.

And you accuse ME of not thinking this through? Uh-huh...

Well, they do try to hijack Jumpships on a regular basis, and they do practice slavery, but no state willl pay pirates ransom under the the Ares Conventions. That's why you never see it in the lore. 3 decades of it, and not once has there ever been a book containing rules for pirate ransom. Only the ransom of nobles or other valued personnel as prisoners of war.

The Ares Conventions have been dead letters for centuries by the 3020s. And any power will pay pirates a king's ransom if they see a need to - hardly difficult to keep quiet about it if desired and who'd anyone complain to if they were found out, anyway? There's no supranational actor with any kind of meaningful authority, nevermind now enforcement ability, over the Houses or ComStar.

If paying off some pirates is the immediately expedient, or sole currently practical, way to get them to go elsewhere for the time being or recover something or someone important then they'll pay. They'll probably also take note of that band for future reprisals should the opportunity occur but hey, outlaw life ain't safe anyway.

I'd imagine they'd be only too much happier to pay a merc operation to give pirates a bloody nose of course. Simple equation really: pirates and mercs operating in same region -> pay mercs to stomp the pirates. Would imagine outlying ComStar facilities in particular handed out a lot of such contracts "off the cuff" as relevant situations pop up.

You're a socialist, aren't you? I can sense it.

I have no idea how this is supposed to be at all relevant to the discussion or why you're bringing your political hang-ups in here.

[Watchman]

Originally posted by GM Pax:

In the case of an actual Periphery nation, then it's THEIR ear that ComStar whispers into, and it's (for example) Taurian Concordat troops putting that pirate in an unmarked grave. ::shrug::

Because that whisper, by the way, amounts to "go deal with that person, or maybe we have to curtail HPG services in <large area> ... in the interests of proper security, and all, of course ..." :)

The Periphery states have an obvious vested interest in suppressing piracy anyway. Doesn't mean they can spare the forces for it, or even necessarily the cash to pay mercs to go bandit-hunting.

ComStar OTOH has no shortage of funds and at least a degree of presence even beyond the major Periphery states so, yeah. They also occasionally indulge in shady shenanigans that might require some loose ends tied up here and there so there's that.

[Gray Death]

Originally posted by Shrike:

I see they are lurking about in the northern part of the map but they don't seem to want my business.

They have also a big planet in the south east of the map.

[Krondarr]

Originally posted by Nine-ball:

Originally posted by Watchman:

Given ComStar's lack of public military assets on one hand and massive economic muscle on the other it'd actually make a whole lot of sense for them to hire mercs to deal with idiots who make trouble for them despite their "untouchable" status. Pirates and other already-seriously lawless types readily come to mind as the kinds of nuisances that might require "troubleshooting", especially out in the Periphery where you can't complain to the local House representative...

That's the thing, though, nobody makes trouble with ComStar, except for Hanse Davion in the Fourth Succession War. If you screw with them, they'll shut off your space internet.

ComStar plays the long game, letting the great houses batter each other into barbarism, with a plan to swoop in and take control once they are weak enough, posing as a neutral entity all the while.

Speaking of which, I don't know why people are saying the ComGuard was a secret. It wasn't, ComStar regulary fielded battlemechs, vehicles, aerospace craft, and infantry throughout the Succession Wars to protect HPG installations.

The secret was that they had SLDF Lostech battlemechs, regiments of them, stored away. They finally had to expose themselves when the Clans invaded and the ComGuard marched in full force on Tukayyid for a proxy battle to gain a truce agreement for the Inner Sphere.

Comstar doesn't generally use mercenaries BECAUSE they want to appear neutral. Like I said before, only the explorer corps uses them with any regularity, and that regularity is sparse.

Yup Comstar. The future evolution of ComCast

[Rob'sEvilTwin]

Originally posted by Krondarr:

Originally posted by Nine-ball:

That's the thing, though, nobody makes trouble with ComStar, except for Hanse Davion in the Fourth Succession War. If you screw with them, they'll shut off your space internet.

ComStar plays the long game, letting the great houses batter each other into barbarism, with a plan to swoop in and take control once they are weak enough, posing as a neutral entity all the while.

Speaking of which, I don't know why people are saying the ComGuard was a secret. It wasn't, ComStar regulary fielded battlemechs, vehicles, aerospace craft, and infantry throughout the Succession Wars to protect HPG installations.

The secret was that they had SLDF Lostech battlemechs, regiments of them, stored away. They finally had to expose themselves when the Clans invaded and the ComGuard marched in full force on Tukayyid for a proxy battle to gain a truce agreement for the Inner Sphere.

Comstar doesn't generally use mercenaries BECAUSE they want to appear neutral. Like I said before, only the explorer corps uses them with any regularity, and that regularity is sparse.

Yup Comstar. The future evolution of ComCast

Actually, Comstar is an Australian ISP and Telco. So they are the future evolution of Telstra :P

[Nine-ball]

Originally posted by Watchman:

A complete strawman. They'd be very short-lived idiots indeed to attack anything that looks like it has a decent chance to fight back under ordinary circumstances, as opposed to exploiting their mobility to hit "soft" targets and disappearing into the lawless wilds of Periphery before reinforcements and retaliation arrives.

"Using the exception to prove the rule" is a logical fallacy in and of itself, it cannot be a strawman by definition. You're also dead wrong on this one. Where on earth are you getting the idea that pirates will just attack anything? It's not in the lore, and it's certainly not in this game, where they back off when local forces send fighters to intercept them.

Think about it. You're trying to make the case equivalent that petty thieves in Chicago regularly raid the mint. It just doesn't happen.

The "pirate havens" way out in periphery obviously don't have HPG stations and even more obviously the mobile pirate bands don't have JumpShip based ones (that's pure lostech). The pirate bands also tend to be rather self-contained and autonomous and have little reason to communicate with each other away from their "home grounds", not that they'd be able to keep track of each others' locations anyway.

And WHAT suppliers? Any business dealings an outsider has with them will be very hush-hush and under the table, probably based on discrete contacts in the local underworld. Their home planets are underdeveloped backwaters with very limited industry and indeed getting supplies they can't source domestically is a major motivation for many raiders in the first place - whether they use them themselves or give or sell to others isn't terribly relevant.

And you accuse ME of not thinking this through? Uh-huh...

Yeah, you're not thinking this through, again, precisely because of your point. HPG stations tend to be on developed worlds, with protected trade corridors. If ComStar had any cause to move supplies, it would be there. No pirate is stupid or lucky enough to get through national defenses in order to sack, of all things, ComStar property.

The Ares Conventions have been dead letters for centuries by the 3020s. And any power will pay pirates a king's ransom if they see a need to - hardly difficult to keep quiet about it if desired and who'd anyone complain to if they were found out, anyway? There's no supranational actor with any kind of meaningful authority, nevermind now enforcement ability, over the Houses or ComStar.

If paying off some pirates is the immediately expedient, or sole currently practical, way to get them to go elsewhere for the time being or recover something or someone important then they'll pay. They'll probably also take note of that band for future reprisals should the opportunity occur but hey, outlaw life ain't safe anyway.

I'd imagine they'd be only too much happier to pay a merc operation to give pirates a bloody nose of course. Simple equation really: pirates and mercs operating in same region -> pay mercs to stomp the pirates. Would imagine outlying ComStar facilities in particular handed out a lot of such contracts "off the cuff" as relevant situations pop up.

But there aren't really any "outlying" ComStar facilities. One of your points was that they wouldn't care about being unable to use HPG stations because they have none.

The only real ComStar presence in the undeveloped Periphery is the Explorer Corps, which does use mercenaries on occassion. Pirates do sometimes attack Explorer Corps vessels, mostly because they don't know they belong to ComStar. The EC goes out of its way to be discreet. Can't have the great houses knowing that they're sniffing around for lostech.

Such attacks are invariably ill-fated, when pirates discover that the Jumpship they wanted to hijack is actually an SLDF warship, or that the base camp they wanted to raid is protected by mechs with superpowers.

I have no idea how this is supposed to be at all relevant to the discussion or why you're bringing your political hang-ups in here.

Sorry about that, it kind of bled over from another argument. Socialists are steadfast opponents of reason, particularly when it comes to empirical evidence. Won't happen again.

[Strontiumdog]

Originally posted by Nine-ball:

Originally posted by Watchman:

A complete strawman. They'd be very short-lived idiots indeed to attack anything that looks like it has a decent chance to fight back under ordinary circumstances, as opposed to exploiting their mobility to hit "soft" targets and disappearing into the lawless wilds of Periphery before reinforcements and retaliation arrives.

"Using the exception to prove the rule" is a logical fallacy in and of itself, it cannot be a strawman by definition. You're also dead wrong on this one. Where on earth are you getting the idea that pirates will just attack anything? It's not in the lore, and it's certainly not in this game, where they back off when local forces send fighters to intercept them.

Think about it. You're trying to make the case equivalent that petty thieves in Chicago regularly raid the mint. It just doesn't happen.

The "pirate havens" way out in periphery obviously don't have HPG stations and even more obviously the mobile pirate bands don't have JumpShip based ones (that's pure lostech). The pirate bands also tend to be rather self-contained and autonomous and have little reason to communicate with each other away from their "home grounds", not that they'd be able to keep track of each others' locations anyway.

And WHAT suppliers? Any business dealings an outsider has with them will be very hush-hush and under the table, probably based on discrete contacts in the local underworld. Their home planets are underdeveloped backwaters with very limited industry and indeed getting supplies they can't source domestically is a major motivation for many raiders in the first place - whether they use them themselves or give or sell to others isn't terribly relevant.

And you accuse ME of not thinking this through? Uh-huh...

Yeah, you're not thinking this through, again, precisely because of your point. HPG stations tend to be on developed worlds, with protected trade corridors. If ComStar had any cause to move supplies, it would be there. No pirate is stupid or lucky enough to get through national defenses in order to sack, of all things, ComStar property.

The Ares Conventions have been dead letters for centuries by the 3020s. And any power will pay pirates a king's ransom if they see a need to - hardly difficult to keep quiet about it if desired and who'd anyone complain to if they were found out, anyway? There's no supranational actor with any kind of meaningful authority, nevermind now enforcement ability, over the Houses or ComStar.

If paying off some pirates is the immediately expedient, or sole currently practical, way to get them to go elsewhere for the time being or recover something or someone important then they'll pay. They'll probably also take note of that band for future reprisals should the opportunity occur but hey, outlaw life ain't safe anyway.

I'd imagine they'd be only too much happier to pay a merc operation to give pirates a bloody nose of course. Simple equation really: pirates and mercs operating in same region -> pay mercs to stomp the pirates. Would imagine outlying ComStar facilities in particular handed out a lot of such contracts "off the cuff" as relevant situations pop up.

But there aren't really any "outlying" ComStar facilities. One of your points was that they wouldn't care about being unable to use HPG stations because they have none.

The only real ComStar presence in the undeveloped Periphery is the Explorer Corps, which does use mercenaries on occassion. Pirates do sometimes attack Explorer Corps vessels, mostly because they don't know they belong to ComStar. The EC goes out of its way to be discreet. Can't have the great houses knowing that they're sniffing around for lostech.

Such attacks are invariably ill-fated, when pirates discover that the Jumpship they wanted to hijack is actually an SLDF warship, or that the base camp they wanted to raid is protected by mechs with superpowers.

I have no idea how this is supposed to be at all relevant to the discussion or why you're bringing your political hang-ups in here.

Sorry about that, it kind of bled over from another argument. Socialists are steadfast opponents of reason, particularly when it comes to empirical evidence. Won't happen again.

House Liao...Viva la revolución

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Originally posted by Snazzy Dragon:

Comstar isn't overtly active at this time and they aren't really the sort of organization to contract outside help

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Why they hell do you think "pirates" have 2 lances of assault mechs late game?

Yeah Comstar is trying to capture or destroy your LosTech filled Highlander.