Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
0 
Report this post
"...She codified parliamentary democracy and created modern institutions, among these the Moralintern." The full quote directly states she's a Moralist.
This quote is from one of the books Harrier can buy, and the item description states that the author was a fascist who was entirely pro-Innocence. The book is not an unbiased source for in-universe history, and shouldn't be taken at face value.
Consider, instead, this:
This line is backed up by Encyclopedia, who states that the remaining members of the Founding Party invented modern finance.
Dolores Dei is not a communist.
Quotes sourced from Fayde[fayde.nfshost.com], which is a searchable database of every line in the game. It's really useful when you're discussing DE, since you can check if the thing you're about to say is true before you say it.
only mentioning it because the user who made the "pretentious" thread hinted they didn't get the difference between the info in a failed or passed check.
I didn't say she is a communist. I say she's a humanist. Communism is a radical form of humanism. BTW I find it funny how this game uses communist style language for names, eg. Moralintern. I would understand if it were Comintern, but why would moralists use commie language to name themselves? I don't think it has any hidden meaning, it's just written by commies.
Ah sorry, I assumed you were trying to say she wasn't anti-communist. I misread you, that's on me. Though at the risk of sounding like a total dork, I will note that communism and humanism are not inextricable, and thus communism shouldn't be understood as radical humanism, instead radical socialism. A lot of communists actually have criticisms of humanism, some even seeing it as antithetical to the cause (not sure I 100% agree with that but I get where they're coming from).
WHATEVER though. Ignoring real life for a second, the Moralintern (which is very explicitly anti-communist) is stated to be a humanist project:
Humanism, here, is presented as un-communist, since it's a driving force behind moralism. Thus so is Dei.
"Moralintern" is actually a play on "Comintern", which was an organisation irl dedicated to international communism. So in-game, it's a portmanteau of moralism + international (appropriate, considering that's literally what it is haha).
"Yefreitor" (Harrier's rank) is also a communist loan word, so-to-speak. It's a rank in the Russian army. I assume in-universe it's a cop word because the RCM are (in part) descended from the communist's citizen militia that was active during the revolution. Just a fun bit of worldbuilding! You can probably tell this by the way I'm posting, but I think that the game being written by communists actually means there's More hidden meaning behind things, not less.
the way most things in the game are written; satirical, constant use of juxtaposition for contrast/comparing purposes, etc.
like how evrart and joyce both sit on the spectrum of communism, but are heavily contrasted
edit: not saying things are obvious, just that they were written hoping someone "like you" would walk along, notice it, and pick it up.
I haven't seen a single case of it in my entire life. Are you sure you aren't misinterpreting something?
That's incorrect. Moralism in the game is a centric political ideology(ask Joyce). Moralism and communism are both humanist, in contrast to monarchism, nationalism and fascism.
Russian "Yefreitor" is derived from German "Gefreiter". It was adopted by Russia 2 centuries before communism reached Russia. So, it has nothing to do with communism.
You're right, I misspoke - I meant "primarily" as opposed to "instead". I'm not the most informed on humanism, so I probably shouldn't have said that. Chalk this one up to ignorance on my part, sorry about that!
Humanism, as is my understanding, can be (though is not necessarily) very individualistic, which can be counterproductive to the project of communism. This is something I've heard occasionally by other communists, and like I said I don't wholly agree with it (because frankly I haven't read enough about marxist humanism to say much either way).
This one's true as well. When discussing DE I usually conceptualize the Moralintern and the communists as like, polar opposites, but obviously since the former is centrist there are still some left-wing influences I should take into account. I think there's still dissonance there though - take this line about communist VS moralist humanism:
This is the game pointing out there's a difference between these forms of humanism - moralism's use of the term lacks class analysis, and is therefore inadequate when it comes to actually realizing the ideal of humanism. You can also get bits of this in the day 1 debrief with Kim, as Harrier can conclude that the moralists are doing a bad job of running Revachol and promoting humanist ideas.
This is true, but considering it was also in use during the USSR (and the devs are Estonian) . In-universe all we know about the term is that it's a rank in the RCM (gained by refusing promotion), and that the RCM's structure was influenced by the ICM. This is enough to infer that's where the rank probably came from. Tenuous or not, there is a link there.
Yeah, I really love how detailed the game's worldbuilding is. It's fun to learn about! Crossing my fingers the writers will be able to tell us more about it someday.
Also, not sure how you came to that conclusion, but Joyce is not a communist. She directly says she's an ultraliberal (capitalist):
(Fayde link to conversation)[fayde.nfshost.com]
Joyce is a really interesting character to me, because she so openly states how horrible capitalism is, and provides some actual analysis on why it's doomed/unfair/generally ♥♥♥♥♥♥, before going "But I benefit from it, so I would never do anything to change it." She's so awful I love her. But yeah not a communist.
it's like how dolores dei is an "innocent", but also loved wargames and conquering.
thus the toy-soldier motif.
i mostly get that feel from joyce because of the way she frames the "disco"/revolution info,
and... after you call her out on her hypocrisy with the boat, i sorta question the things she outright says, so i went with the stuff she let slip out i.e. disco.
it's probably not correct, but it's the journey the narrative sent me on.
Yes, she's a liberal. But as far I understood her, she became an ultra from a communist. I may be mistaken.
https://fayde.nfshost.com/dialojue/6360086
There was also a dialog where she said she could be a communist because she likes it's spirit. I don't remember exactly. Something like that.
Yeah! She says this:
which is really telling about how she (&liberalism in general, as a structure) views the revolution. It's not outright "because we stopped them", but "because they lost" - if the communists wanted to win, they should've considered not getting bombed to pieces. Her outlook comes off as pretty selfish. Also, you only get this dialogue if she thinks Harrier is a communist, so she could be lying to get him on her side. Considering she's in Martinaise to try and prevent a second revolution, that's probably the case.
It reminds me of another line she has, about Cindy the Skull:
She knows a lot of the communist theory, but still dimisses it. Cindy wears 'old people's clothes' because she's homeless! It's not refuge from the supraculture [ie superstructure], it IS the supraculture. In contrast to The Sunday Friend, who chooses to ignore the violence of the system, Joyce understands and acknowledges the violence and is still committed to making more violence. She's a really unique character.
curious because the impression i had from my own choices were that joyce thought harry was "disco".
both things have associations to the concept of "revolution", but i never figured out if, within the logic of the game-world, if the two are considered the same or distinct.
Yeah actually I think you're on to something! They certainly parallel each other, imo.
Like, disco is 'dead' in the same sense that communism is 'dead' - most people assume its time has passed and are moving on. The cultural phenomenon of disco is over, and the anticentennial revolution is over - Harrier clings to disco, and the Deserter clings to the revolution. This is portrayed as unhealthy for both of them, obviously. They both metaphorically kill themselves over it (deserter w/isolation, harrier w/amnesia).
However, disco and communism are still around, just in forms that are harder to recognize. The student communists, Cindy, and the dockworkers all represent different facets of communist organisation, and the strike especially is portrayed as the opening move to a second revolution. If you complete the sidequest with the kids at the church, you can name their dance hall "Disco Elysium", even though their music it's technically a different genre.
The Deserter hates the new communists, and what they've done/are doing for revachol (he's even homophobic, which is funny considering being gay was legalized during the revolution). His situation is sympathetic, but it's ultimately self-imposed: there is still hope for communism, even though he's given up on it. The church sidequest, then, represents there's still hope for 'disco'. This is also a parallel between Harrier and the Deserter - both of them can only be happy if they move on from the past. They shouldn't forget about it, but they can't stay in it at the expense of the future. The Deserter gets the chance to do this, but doesn't take it. Whether or not Harrier takes it is up to the player.
Like the game literally says "communism is about failure". The pale deletes information, preventing people from learning from it (and consumes people who try and stay in it - the paledriver). And this is like, Level Fifty DE Nerd ♥♥♥♥, so i dont expect you to know it, but in Robert Kurvitz's novel A Sacred and Terrible Air, communism is directly stated to be able to repel the pale. The game is so much about communism it's impressive.
Sorry for the paragraphs haha, you activated something in my brain. Love this game
though, for me, the thing that clicked was how "klaasje" was his "dolores dei".
also, though it's more an assumption (of how certain things in the world work),
he somewhat spoke in a fractured way like how harry does/thinks.
probably partially due to cryptid exposure.
that whole situation sucks.
the state he was in a year ago was bad.
everything went down while he was trying to mentally recover from a crunch.
you could tell dealing with "all the stuff" was not only halting recovery, but was actively hurting it.
it would be nice if, after he recovers, if he... idk, tried crowdfunding or something.
i believe he'd have a ton of support, even now.
plus, after what happened, finding/founding his own "tribe" would probably be good for him.