What was that about the communist manifesto?

[Aly]

Quite odd that they said that during the Game Awards when their game allows us to be whatever we want to, communist, liberal, traditionalist, centrist and even a racist.

I thought the developers were pretty rad to let us politically align with anything we want with no condescending lesson of morale. Characters with controversial opinions are not caricatures and are treated fairly with their pros and (usually many) cons.

I have also heard that this game is voice acted by a bunch of socialist podcast people.

I still think this game is great, but all this is kind of a let down to me. I really think this game is amazing, but if I was to buy this game after the Game Awards I would have thought 1000x times before getting it, because I personally do not like to support people who politically align towards socialist and communist ideas.

[Darth Bane]

Messaggio originale di kholtby:

Messaggio originale di Darth Bane:

I see, you lack knowledge about China. Look closer...

I see you providing no actual counter-argument other than 'everybody knows this,' which is no argument at all.

China has a socialist market economy. It’s not the same as the U.S., France, Germany etc.

[kholtby]

Messaggio originale di Darth Bane:

Messaggio originale di kholtby:

I see you providing no actual counter-argument other than 'everybody knows this,' which is no argument at all.

China has a socialist market economy. It’s not the same as the U.S., France, Germany etc.

'Not identical' does not equal 'completely different.' More specifically, it does not mean 'different in ways relevant to this discussion.'

http://english.sse.com.cn/
https://www.hkex.com.hk/?sc_lang=en

[FOXXOF]

Wuw genocide yeah wuw. The Gulag Archipelago should be required reading.

[Beastman]

This same debate keeps cropping up every time someone brings up socialism and communism. The devs made that remark about Marx and Engels mainly as a way to stir up some controversy and draw attention to this game. It's pretty obvious to anyone who isn't a completely rabid anti-communist or far right nutjob that this was their intent all along. The game doesn't really have a strong political bias, unless you consider its ridicule of fascists to be a bad thing. Overall, I think it actually did a pretty good job walking the line when it comes to the issue of politics in games.

Communism in the 20th century may have failed spectacularly, but it doesn't necessarily discredit many of the points Marx and Engels brought up regarding some of the inherent flaws in capitalism either. Stalin may have been a brutal ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, but its likely that without him at the helm in Russia during WW2, things may have been pretty dire. We'll never truly know how things may have turned out, but also for a brief time in history the USSR did manage to eclipse the west in science and had a fairly robust economy until internal corruption and mismanagement brought about its downfall. Extreme politics, right or left, also seems to have a disturbing tendency to fall prey to authoritarianism.

The system we have now just allows us to keep kicking the can down the road longer than communism or fascism, but if we continue to respond with kneejerk reactions to ideas we are propagandized to reject without any consideration, we're just as screwed. It's better to learn from history rather than close ourselves off.

[figbyfigbyfigby]

Messaggio originale di JPL1138:

. It's pretty obvious to anyone who isn't a completely rabid anti-communist or far right nutjob...

...may have failed spectacularly...

Or a sad agitator only learned in the ways of the swamp.

Off-topic, heavy Darkest Dungeon vibes from the words "failed spectacularly", great game ^^

[Beastman]

Messaggio originale di figbyfigbyfigby:

Messaggio originale di JPL1138:

. It's pretty obvious to anyone who isn't a completely rabid anti-communist or far right nutjob...

...may have failed spectacularly...

Or a sad agitator only learned in the ways of the swamp.

Off-topic, heavy Darkest Dungeon vibes from the words "failed spectacularly", great game ^^

Yeah, that game was great and had some terrific mods. I'm hoping the sequel will be at least just as good.

[figbyfigbyfigby]

Messaggio originale di JPL1138:

Messaggio originale di figbyfigbyfigby:

Or a sad agitator only learned in the ways of the swamp.

Off-topic, heavy Darkest Dungeon vibes from the words "failed spectacularly", great game ^^

Yeah, that game was great and had some terrific mods. I'm hoping the sequel will be at least just as good.

I'm totally gonna make an "Highwayman cosplay" with mesque scarf, RCM black coat, interisolary trousers and cavalry boots, pistol and sword equipped and regular consumption of "Commodore Red" to awaken the Crimson Curse.

[TheGameConsultant]

This game reeks of psuedo-intellectual jerkoff ideas. Now after reading this thread, I know why - it is propoaganda for left socialism. Glad I refunded this crap. This is nothing more than a pretensious Sierra point-click adventure game redone.

[Me]

Messaggio originale di TheGameConsultant:

This game reeks of psuedo-intellectual jerkoff ideas. Now after reading this thread, I know why - it is propoaganda for left socialism. Glad I refunded this crap. This is nothing more than a pretensious Sierra point-click adventure game redone.

There's probably no game on the market today that so openly mocks and ridicules "left socialism" as this game. So that couldn't be further from the truth.

[Und was haben wir hier?]

Messaggio originale di Darth Bane:

Messaggio originale di kholtby:

I see you providing no actual counter-argument other than 'everybody knows this,' which is no argument at all.

China has a socialist market economy. It’s not the same as the U.S., France, Germany etc.

Semi-truth. China doesn´t have real central planned economy, but indeed some aspects present. However the emphasis isn´t on the welfare of workers (in fact the social policies in rural areas especially are almost non existent), but on the economcy (greatness) of a nation. The fact is, nationalism is strongly in contrary with marxism. China is more imperialist than socialist country in fact, with free market where the state interferes for the "good" of the state´s economy (usually for big companies - again, totally contrary to any marxist ideas, or even Stalin´s etc.). The continuity of maoism is more on a rhetorical level with the main purpose being the emphasis on the long continuity of China, and the accent on the development it reached.

[Ortellios]

Messaggio originale di Barbarrosa:

I refuse to buy the game after hearing that. If they're commies the game should be for free right?

Same here

[Dark Willow's Stoner Friend]

Messaggio originale di JPL1138:

This same debate keeps cropping up every time someone brings up socialism and communism. The devs made that remark about Marx and Engels mainly as a way to stir up some controversy and draw attention to this game. It's pretty obvious to anyone who isn't a completely rabid anti-communist or far right nutjob that this was their intent all along. The game doesn't really have a strong political bias, unless you consider its ridicule of fascists to be a bad thing. Overall, I think it actually did a pretty good job walking the line when it comes to the issue of politics in games.

So there is the nice story experience you can have playing a character that articulates whichever of the 4 political ideologies you choose, and you can think that is a politically neutral design choice. But there is also the framework of setting and themes of the narrative which I think point to the writers being socialists. Basically there is a facet of the game which is a well-written adventure game, and there is a facet that is an exploration of the current state of Marxist political theory in the current world. I'm guessing you're some type of centrist/liberal since you're using the liberal definition of communist, and talking about left/right as a political spectrum so it would be hard for you to see this particular facet.

The Marxist approach of material dialectics is not a position on the spectrum, it is a fundamentally different perspective to analysing the formation and articulation of political ideology. Short of downloading dialectical materialism into your brain I can't fully explain why I think this is an inherently socialist game, but in short: Revachol is a city where a generation ago a commune formed and was crushed by an invasion from surrounding capitalist nations (not sure if it's supposed to be more like the Paris commune, or like soviet authoritarian communism, seems to be a bit of elements of both.) Revachol then became a sort of Idealized free market capitalist territory, kept in this state by the surrounding nations so that they can exploit the city for their own interests. This is the kind of world where mercenary pinkertons are brought in to violently deal with wildcat strikes and the institutions that supposedly ballance the contradictory interests of labour and capital (unions, civil services) are corrupted by their material position, which is what drives the drama of the story.

The Martinaise district exists in the USA today in the post-industrial sacrifice regions where maintaining manufacturing was no longer "efficient"

-The failed revolutions of the past crushed by capitalist states.
-The successful revolutions of the past that failed to produce a socialist society, and ultimately collapsed.
-The clear problems of capitalism that necessitate change to our failed socio-economic order
-The unrealised potential of a better world

These are the stimuli of the modern left that is emerging which is not yet formed into a coherant political movement. Disco Elysium puts you into a world shaped by this framework, it's somewhat cathartic for me, but ultimately it leaves us with the old question: what is to be done?

TLDR:there are intricacies of socialism that the game exhibits that you would not notice if you were not a socialist.

[Beastman]

I'm a pretty left leaning "centrist" but the biggest beef I have is with authoritarianism, left or right. My understanding of modern history is that every political movement is invariably hijacked by a handful of elites who become tyrants and run roughshod over the common people. This was the case for the USSR, and especially true for China which resembles something akin to fascism or modern day feudalism. The people who are given the power to decide what is "correct doctrine" always seem to become corrupted by that power and end up becoming what they set out to replace.

By US standards I would be labelled a socialist or a commie, simply for supporting workers' rights, a socialized welfare system, and believing that we should put an end to crony capitalism. I admit I haven't read too deeply into socialist theory and wouldn't call myself one per se, but you offer a pretty interesting take on the story and its connection to socialism.

I can see what you mean by how the story of Revachol is deeply rooted in material dialectics, or at least what I understand from a basic understanding of Hegelian dialectics. But much like our world, what can really be done as you've said? It can't continue being an endless back and forth struggle where the only ones who end up suffering in the end are the common people.

[LotR[Henchman]]

Imo the best example to give on how Marx and Engels can easily be disconnected from Stalin, Lenin and communism is how it played out in germany post WW1. In short very basic form:
Socialists and Communists where fighting each other and the Nazis. Hitler came to power (according to modern marxists and communists bcause the socialists betrayed them) and fell. And Socialists and Communists again started fighting each other. And both sites always have a nice 'no true scotsman' discussion about how each of them interprets what Marx and Engels wrote and the other conclusion on how to act on such analysis.

And so far i've spoken to quite a few economists who thought communism is very bogus, but the work of Marx and Engels was quite laudable besides their conclusions.

So i wouldn't say anyone refering to Marx and Engels as having them educated about politics is nessecarily anything, other than actually educated about at least some stuff. And i think especially in studying the controversially disucssed works you can gain quite an understanding about people and politics.

@International Socialism
Well aren't you just describing an enviroment that anyone could grasp who has taken some look at the post soviet states? It's not only as if socialists ask themselves how to form the world, every new generation born and educated into any political believes aks itself if something can be changed to the better.

[Beastman]

Messaggio originale di LotRHenchman:

Imo the best example to give on how Marx and Engels can easily be disconnected from Stalin, Lenin and communism is how it played out in germany post WW1. In short very basic form:
Socialists and Communists where fighting each other and the Nazis. Hitler came to power (according to modern marxists and communists bcause the socialists betrayed them) and fell. And Socialists and Communists again started fighting each other. And both sites always have a nice 'no true scotsman' discussion about how each of them interprets what Marx and Engels wrote and the other conclusion on how to act on such analysis.

I get the impression that this is partly one of the reasons why communism has continuously failed to be implemented. This extreme fixation on heterodoxy and political dogma constantly leads to infighting and elitism. In the end this just concentrates power in the hands of a select few sociopaths who were in it for the power all along. Even liberals in the west are prone to eating their own, especially in the US. On the other hand, the far right seems to be far more unified and are quick to fall in line behind a "fuhrer" even if they may not necessarily agree with them entirely.

I can't see how communism could ever come to pass without a fundamental change in human nature and our conception of power. All the 'successful' current examples I've been given were all too small scale to matter or ultimately doomed to be crushed by a larger threat.