"Play how you want" vs. Bottleneck Checks

[Stabbey]

I enjoyed the game, and have finished it, but I think there is room for improvement in certain areas. For example, the game's design philosophy seems to encourage you to play how you want and accept the consequences of failed checks.

For the most part that works, but there are one or two points where the only way to advance the main plot (not just an optional side task), you need to pass a specific skill check, with no other options.

I *think* one of them is an Authority check to convince Titus to accept your authority. If you cannot pass that one, you cannot advance the main plot. That's only an Challenging (12) check and you can get some positive circumstance modifiers.), so it's not too difficult to pass, but it is still a bottleneck. A different skill check to let you attempt to to persuade him to cooperate would be welcome.


But there's another check late in the game - a Shivers check on a giant Feld Electrical mural which is Impossible (20). If you don't have much into Physique or Shivers, it's a very difficult check, even if you accumulate +7 in modifiers (and some of those come from optional tasks which Kim discourages you from doing because they're not case-related. Another of the +1 comes from internalizing the White Mourning Thought AND performing a specific task.

If you succeed (and pass a Savoir Faire check) you get access into Feld Electrical and need to find a way to let Kim in. Kim is waiting for you at the door, a door he spotted from the outside. Kim, who has poor eyesight, finds the door. A door you cannot possibly spot even if you have TWELVE in Perception (I checked).

Other possible skill checks which could be unlocked after you go back and check the Feld Mural a second time:

• Perception - Look around carefully for anything you might have missed. Lets you see the door below. You might need to pass another check to OPEN it, say, with the Prybar Mark 2, or that could also unlock you trying to go for the ladder.
  
• Inland Empire - Use your imagination to try and guess what you haven't seen. Lets you spot the ladder.
  
• Logic - Someone who is trying to hide isn't going to move around much. They would want a place to hole up. You have eliminated all the other possible locations. Lets you spot the ladder or the door.

That gives you more opportunities to try and continue without bottlenecking you to only that one Shivers check.

[ironyuri]

You're wrong about this. You're so wrong that you are ruining my *disco vibes*

The bottleneck is designed to encourage players to complete all content before entering the endgame which does railroad you. Once you've confronted Ruby, there is no going back and some areas are locked down. If you have completed all of the quests available on the coast, then the roll modifiers will be so high that you will almost certainly have 97% chance to succeed even without investing in Shivers as a skill.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/761597617773829805/0D15206298D16B52E686435CC3D313DC5309C757/

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/761597617773830115/F5DEB7FCA818D1D76411B7AA3BD26F66DA86B20E/

The positive (+) roll modifiers are even higher if you've resolved the church (I hadn't resolved the church content yet at this savepoint). You also get clothing items naturally through progress that add +3 to Shivers. You can also drink alcohol to raise your PHYS.

This doesn't include the THC thoughts you can use:
The Bow Collector flat +3 shivers, for example.

[Durruti]

Stabbey님이 먼저 게시:

Sisyphus님이 먼저 게시:

It's not that difficult a check is my point, as long as you've done the tasks on the Island. A check of 58 percent minimum isn't that big a deal, and there are plenty of clothing items that add to shivers.

Apparently you are unable to comprehend, so I'll try speaking slower.

The. Point. Is. Not. The. Check's. Difficulty. (Even. Though. That. Is. Still. Very. High.) It. Is. Bad. For. The. A. Game. Claiming. To. Be. So. Open. To. Only. Have. A. Single. Bottle-necked. Check. For. The. Main. Plot.

Now go away.

being an insufferable d-bag is a good way to endear people to your point of view.

[Sisyphus]

Yes, I should have explained it as Ironyuri did, but if you successfully do everything on the island you can't fail the shivers check (except rolling 1s).

[Sentient_Toaster]

ironyuri님이 먼저 게시:

The bottleneck is designed to encourage players to complete all content before entering the endgame which does railroad you. Once you've confronted Ruby, there is no going back and some areas are locked down. If you have completed all of the quests available on the coast, then the roll modifiers will be so high that you will almost certainly have 97% chance to succeed even without investing in Shivers as a skill.

'The obvious problem with this argument is that after you enter the building, there is an unmissable warning to similar effect before you approach Ruby... and *that* warning does not have even the possibility of an effective progression blocker due to rolling 1/1. IOW, the devs have no problem with the game literally talking to you and warning you about a point of no return even without a skill check.

With a skill check, even a white test... it's possible to be permanently blocked simply by bad rolls, given that 1-1 will fail you even if you have 6 Physique and max out Shivers, and there comes a point where you cannot gain additional rolls.

It's also worth noting that "completing all the quests availableon the coast" requires not arresting the people planning to set up a drug lab (which, arguably, is dereliction of duty), and is gated by the ice cream machine -- which *also* requires a physique check, and can be readily permanently failed even with defrosting and the 'special' tool.

[ironyuri]

Sentient_Toaster님이 먼저 게시:

ironyuri님이 먼저 게시:

The bottleneck is designed to encourage players to complete all content before entering the endgame which does railroad you. Once you've confronted Ruby, there is no going back and some areas are locked down. If you have completed all of the quests available on the coast, then the roll modifiers will be so high that you will almost certainly have 97% chance to succeed even without investing in Shivers as a skill.

'The obvious problem with this argument is that after you enter the building, there is an unmissable warning to similar effect before you approach Ruby... and *that* warning does not have even the possibility of an effective progression blocker due to rolling 1/1. IOW, the devs have no problem with the game literally talking to you and warning you about a point of no return even without a skill check.

With a skill check, even a white test... it's possible to be permanently blocked simply by bad rolls, given that 1-1 will fail you even if you have 6 Physique and max out Shivers, and there comes a point where you cannot gain additional rolls.

It's also worth noting that "completing all the quests availableon the coast" requires not arresting the people planning to set up a drug lab (which, arguably, is dereliction of duty), and is gated by the ice cream machine -- which *also* requires a physique check, and can be readily permanently failed even with defrosting and the 'special' tool.

In addition to everything listed in my own post, you can unlock that check (it's a white check) potentially 3 times if you fail by internalising ANY of the thoughts below, all of which you can have discovered at that stage of the game.

Arno Van Eyck How to get:speak to Egg head in the church about making his beat more hardcoreWhile researching: hours, Result: All white checks unlocked, you can spot Arno posters in the environment.

The Insulindian Miracle How to get: Tell Joyce about the Unions ultimate end goal and then listen to her explain how these islands were discoveredWhile researching: hours, Result: All white checks unlocked.

The Litany of Contact MikeHow to get: Talk to the girl by the Tent about Contact Mike (near the Boardwalk, after day 3)Requires a passive Encyclopedia Check of 10+ and possibly a passive physical Instrument check of 10+ afterwards.While researching: 15m, -1 Logic, -1 Conceptualization, -1 DramaResult: All FYS (Physical/Pink) White Checks unlocked

You can also internalise:

The Precarious World
How to get: Pass the Shivers check with the Dice Maker inside the abandoned business building behind the Bookstore.
While researching: 4 hours, All red checks fail
Result: Critical success/failure thresholds lowered by 1

This changes the critical success/fail threshold.

ALL of these thoughts would impact the Shivers check. It is [VISUAL CALCULUS] *impossible* that you would be totally stuck and totally unable to progress further.

[Stabbey]

I can't help but notice that nobody has offered any explanation as to why it would be *wrong* to add one or two alternate skill check options to the Shivers check. Why would those extra options be terrible and horrible to add.

They wouldn't change the story, they just would add an alternate route to getting inside.

ironyuri님이 먼저 게시:

Arno Van Eyck How to get:speak to Egg head in the church about making his beat more hardcoreWhile researching: hours, Result: All white checks unlocked, you can spot Arno posters in the environment.

No, all locked MOTORICS (yellow) checks are unlocked. Unlocking locked checks is also a one-time-only thing for checks locked at the time the thought is internalized (at least based on how Volumetric ♥♥♥♥ Compressor works if you still fail to inspect the body). (Arno Van Eyck is also a really useless Thought.)

Also, picking specific thoughts to bypass checks requires you to know in advance what the thought does when completed. In addition, by that time you are likely to have a full thought cabinet, so you'll need a spare skill point.

The Insulindian Miracle How to get: Tell Joyce about the Unions ultimate end goal and then listen to her explain how these islands were discoveredWhile researching: hours, Result: All white checks unlocked.

Even if that does unlock all white checks everywhere, when does that option appear, because it's not in my list of things to ask about.

ALL of these thoughts would impact the Shivers check. It is [VISUAL CALCULUS] *impossible* that you would be totally stuck and totally unable to progress further.

[LOGIC] (Easy): (Success) By definition it cannot be impossible, because there are finite sources of XP and so finite skill points, and you can turn down many of the tasks which give bonuses for reasonable reasons (passing the accident victim off to another detective, giving up on helping the cryptozoologists, shutting down the speed lab or failing to open the freezer).

[Me]

My main gripe with the check isn't so much it's a bottleneck, but rather just that it's completely nonsensical that it's a Shiver's check. Like the OP says, why couldn't it be a logic check, or a perception? I mean do I even need to make a check? I can clearly see the ladder (I even tried to click on it to climb it the first time I passed the area), am I supposed to believe that my character can not see it? We are already searching the area for a missing person, so looking inside all the buildings seems obvbious as well.

The fact that the game suddenly, without rime or reason just says "oooh, maybe try and do a shivers check to see if you can figure out how to get into this here building," seems completely arbitrary, like the developers just suddenly worried that they hadn't included the skill enough in the game and had to do something to make it feel like a valuable skill (which I think it already were).

[Sisyphus]

I think it was gating to dissuade the player from checking it out till they had progressed more in the island. In other rpgs, harder encounters/higher level areas do that. But in a game without combat you need to find another way.

The shivers check is neither here nor there, it could have been any skill. But I think they went shivers because you have no particular reason to check out that particular decrepit building, you go with a hunch.

[LDiCesare]

I'm at the point where I seriously think of stopping the game because of that stupid Shivers check.
I had 2 in phys. Have 1 clothing giving me +1. Get +7 from stuff (even though I don't begin to understand why I'd have to check for locusts to get there). Put 1 point in shivers in order to help. Failed.
Now whqt I have to do is run around and get BORED until I can try the check again?
Or savescum?
That's just bad design.

[Sisyphus]

It's basically a checklist of have you engaged with the content in the area. You have more quests to finish.

[Stabbey]

Sisyphus님이 먼저 게시:

It's basically a checklist of have you engaged with the content in the area. You have more quests to finish.

Aside from the fact that side quests are usually considered optional, not mandatory content, completing all the quests in the area requires another difficult Physical Instrument check in an otherwise "smart computer guy" quest.

I'm not sure if you're allowed to agree to do some tasks id you've already turned them down. I know you can do that for Evrart's.

(Still no one has a reason why it would be bad for an alternative check. I mean, Sisyphus pointed out that the game does indeed provide an alternate check to the Savoir Faire check for the ladder as a way to get in.)

[Me]

It's also actually not a checklist to make sure you've done all the side content, at all. Or rather it's a checklist to make sure that people with low physique has done all the side content. But apperantly, if you have maxed out your physique and put points into shivers, then the developers don't want you to do the side content anyways and says "just go ahead".

[Sisyphus]

Shivers has a low number of checks in the game, but those that it does have a high payoff.

[Kain]

Look. Obviously you'll need to pass some checks, for me that's perfectly fine for two reasons.

1. If you fool around you'll always find ways to boost your chances in a check.

2. There are at least other 2 or 3 ways you could try something with different checks

3. Ok it's actually 3 reasons. But as silly as people complain about the clothing system it really is a game changer.

[LDiCesare]

Sisyphus님이 먼저 게시:

It's basically a checklist of have you engaged with the content in the area. You have more quests to finish.

No I don't have, or don't want to take on those quests. Remember the game is touted as having unprecedented FREEDOM OF CHOICE​ on their website? So you have the choice to do all the quests but not ignore or refuse some? Seriously? Side quests? And even if there were more quests to do, I don't want to run around with a bad user interface (moving south 20 meters by clicking three times but moving east by clicking once) to find them because it's boring as hell.
When you reach the shivers wall, the game suddenly forces you to have one skill that you didn't want to use, without warning. The quests you have at this point are partially locked (you can't check the trajectory from the boardwalk because the writers said so, even though you can go there).