"Play how you want" vs. Bottleneck Checks

[Stabbey]

I enjoyed the game, and have finished it, but I think there is room for improvement in certain areas. For example, the game's design philosophy seems to encourage you to play how you want and accept the consequences of failed checks.

For the most part that works, but there are one or two points where the only way to advance the main plot (not just an optional side task), you need to pass a specific skill check, with no other options.

I *think* one of them is an Authority check to convince Titus to accept your authority. If you cannot pass that one, you cannot advance the main plot. That's only an Challenging (12) check and you can get some positive circumstance modifiers.), so it's not too difficult to pass, but it is still a bottleneck. A different skill check to let you attempt to to persuade him to cooperate would be welcome.


But there's another check late in the game - a Shivers check on a giant Feld Electrical mural which is Impossible (20). If you don't have much into Physique or Shivers, it's a very difficult check, even if you accumulate +7 in modifiers (and some of those come from optional tasks which Kim discourages you from doing because they're not case-related. Another of the +1 comes from internalizing the White Mourning Thought AND performing a specific task.

If you succeed (and pass a Savoir Faire check) you get access into Feld Electrical and need to find a way to let Kim in. Kim is waiting for you at the door, a door he spotted from the outside. Kim, who has poor eyesight, finds the door. A door you cannot possibly spot even if you have TWELVE in Perception (I checked).

Other possible skill checks which could be unlocked after you go back and check the Feld Mural a second time:

• Perception - Look around carefully for anything you might have missed. Lets you see the door below. You might need to pass another check to OPEN it, say, with the Prybar Mark 2, or that could also unlock you trying to go for the ladder.
  
• Inland Empire - Use your imagination to try and guess what you haven't seen. Lets you spot the ladder.
  
• Logic - Someone who is trying to hide isn't going to move around much. They would want a place to hole up. You have eliminated all the other possible locations. Lets you spot the ladder or the door.

That gives you more opportunities to try and continue without bottlenecking you to only that one Shivers check.

[Sisyphus]

You can find that other way in if you speak to the man on the boardwalk btw.

[Stabbey]

Originally posted by Sisyphus:

You can find that other way in if you speak to the man on the boardwalk btw.

No, you can't. He doesn't say anything about that, either when asking about a suspect, asking about the building, or after you fail the check.

[Sisyphus]

Yes you can, because I've done it. After you pass the first shivers check, you can ask him if there is a way in to the building.

[Stabbey]

Originally posted by Sisyphus:

Yes you can, because I've done it. After you pass the first shivers check, you can ask him if there is a way in to the building.

If you PASS the Shivers check, you learn how to see the ladder. If you FAIL the check, that's the problem because you have no alternatives. If you FAIL the check, the guy says nothing about a way in.

That is the bottleneck - passing the difficulty 20 check in a flavor/lore skill.

[Sisyphus]

Yes, I was just pointing out there is a way around doing the climbing check you were talking about. Not to mention that you can horde skill points, or use the modifiers/clothing. At the bare minimum the percentage should be no less than 58 percent for a 20 check.

I can see why the people don't like the check-gating, but it makes a lot of sense from the point of view of preventing players from locking themselves into the endgame.

[Stabbey]

Originally posted by Sisyphus:

Yes, I was just pointing out there is a way around doing the climbing check you were talking about

A way around the climbing check is good. No way around the Shivers check is bad.

. Not to mention that you can horde skill points, or use the modifiers/clothing. At the bare minimum the percentage should be no less than 58 percent for a 20 check.

There are lots of things a player could spend skill points on, such as unlocking other white checks and unlocking thought slots or possibly removing detrimental thoughts. You can horde some points, sure, but the design does encourages you to spend them as an alternative to save-scumming.

I can see why the people don't like the check-gating, but it makes a lot of sense from the point of view of preventing players from locking themselves into the endgame.

No, it does not "make a lot of sense" in the context of the design of the rest of the game. Besides, that's not the point of no return, Kim warns you of that farther in fairly clearly.

[Sisyphus]

It's not that difficult a check is my point, as long as you've done the tasks on the Island. A check of 58 percent minimum isn't that big a deal, and there are plenty of clothing items that add to shivers.

[Stabbey]

Originally posted by Sisyphus:

It's not that difficult a check is my point, as long as you've done the tasks on the Island. A check of 58 percent minimum isn't that big a deal, and there are plenty of clothing items that add to shivers.

Apparently you are unable to comprehend, so I'll try speaking slower.

The. Point. Is. Not. The. Check's. Difficulty. (Even. Though. That. Is. Still. Very. High.) It. Is. Bad. For. The. A. Game. Claiming. To. Be. So. Open. To. Only. Have. A. Single. Bottle-necked. Check. For. The. Main. Plot.

Now go away.

[Sisyphus]

I understand you perfectly, but what you're talking about is irrelevant to this game. It isn't open whatsoever. It has a linear detective story, and you aren't free to change anything. It's Planescape Torment style reactivity, where what you can change is your characters' beliefs, attitudes, thoughts.

I dearly wish people would get that through their brain. This isn't a sandbox and you can't haphazardly interact with it. You couldn't change anything in Baldur's Gate or any number of other RPGs either.

The skill-gating is also there from the very beginning, when you try to interact with the corpse. The game introduces you to the ways around whatever checks it throws at you - modifiers, spending skill points, using the thought cabinet. Not to mention clothing and drugs.

So let's be clear here. Do you just want the game to be completely open, or do you want story branching?

[Stabbey]

Originally posted by Sisyphus:

I understand you perfectly

No, you clearly do not.

, but what you're talking about is irrelevant to this game.

That's false, because the game gives you multiple options to proceed at most other points.

I dearly wish people would get that through their brain. This isn't a sandbox and you can't haphazardly interact with it.

The marketing and the interviews and developers blog disagree with that.

You couldn't change anything in Baldur's Gate or any number of other RPGs either.

I wasn't talking about changing the plot. I was talking about allowing the plot to advance at all.

[Sisyphus]

Why does it matter? It would take brain damage to not pass that check between Day 3 and 6 with all of the resources available to you. And since the game is premised on "failing forward", giving you alternative options ♥♥♥♥♥ up that design philosophy. So what you're suggesting is equally dumb.

[Stabbey]

The skill-gating is also there from the very beginning, when you try to interact with the corpse. The game introduces you to the ways around whatever checks it throws at you - modifiers, spending skill points, using the thought cabinet. Not to mention clothing and drugs.

You get two chances to examine the corpse without puking, and if you fail both of those, you get a Thought that takes very little time to advance that gives you +6 to that check, and raises your Endurance cap in case it was too low so if needed you can have up to 4 additional chances to pass the check.

That is designed specifically to make it easier to advance the plot. The Shivers one is not. And additionally, Shivers is largely used as a lore skill, not an core investigative skill.

So let's be clear here. Do you just want the game to be completely open, or do you want story branching?

You claimed that the game isn't completely open, so does that mean you think the game has story branching? Because it doesn't. The story is pretty linear and whatever branches there are converge back into themselves.

Originally posted by Sisyphus:

Why does it matter? It would take brain damage to not pass that check between Day 3 and 6 with all of the resources available to you.

It matters because it seems to go against the philosophy of freedom and "accept failure" which the rest of the game tries to embrace.

It does not take brain damage, it takes not knowing in advance to save a bunch of points to shove into a lore skill.

And since the game is premised on "failing forward", giving you alternative options ♥♥♥♥♥ up that design philosophy. So what you're suggesting is equally dumb.

[/quote]

What the fudge?

LITERALLY MY ENTIRE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ POINT is that you CANNOT "fail forward" with that check.

Thanks for ruining this thread with your incessant sh-t-posting.

[Sisyphus]

Yes you can fail forward. By investigating the island more. By spending a skill point. By F5 F9ing. It isn't a red check, and it isn't a progression blocker.

Let's break it down. If there were alternative solutions for every build, the game would be totally mindless because you couldn't ever fail. THAT IS DUMB.

[Me]

Originally posted by Stabbey:

You get two chances to examine the corpse without puking, and if you fail both of those, you get a Thought that takes very little time to advance that gives you +6 to that check, and raises your Endurance cap in case it was too low so if needed you can have up to 4 additional chances to pass the check.

That is designed specifically to make it easier to advance the plot. The Shivers one is not. And additionally, Shivers is largely used as a lore skill, not an core investigative skill.

The shivers check work exactly the same way. It's designed in such a way that if you just do the side-missions in the area, you can't fail the check no matter what because of all the bonuses you get to the check (except for rolling two 1's I guess). So you can't really get stuck there.

[Stabbey]

Why am I not forced into beating Measurehead in physical combat as the only way to get in and see Evrart Claire? I don't understand why I have different options here. That just doesn't make any sense.