Lets have a civil discussion about Mithrix.

[Proteus Ω]

Alright alright alright, I heard everyone's pieces on "gitting good" and "too unfair, bad design, hopoo sux".

Now lets have a proper conversation on how we can make it better. Because one of the main things I'm not hearing, is how to improve Mithrix. What do you like about him? What do you not like about him? What would you change, and how would you change it?

This is a thread for constructive criticism, don't come in here replying with "hes bad" or "hes fine".


First though, lets talk about vision. What is Mithrix supposed to be?

Well, he's the final boss, and he's the ultimate test of your knowledge and skills, and the final gatekeeper preventing you from finishing the game. He's the King of Nothing, so ultimately powerful, yet all he rules over is a barren moon.


Here's my opinion:

-I love the music, it's fitting and it makes the fight seem very epic.

-I love the stage, I'm sure a lot of people don't like how barren it is, but it makes perfect sense because it's the moon, and he's the king of nothing, so of course there's nothing there. As for how people are getting lost on it I'm not sure? It's literally the only stage that is a single path.

-Mithrix intro feels awesome and he's intimidating for sure. The first two stages of the fight are very scary, but I think appropriate cause his attacks are pretty telegraphed and avoidable.

-I actually like the idea of item stealing though I understand how it can be brokenly overpowered in a lot of circumstances. The concept is good though, because as a lot of people said it's the anti-thesis of the game; which is a great thing because Mithrix IS the anti-thesis of you as the player. Though as the Developers have said, and I agree, it forces you to think too hard about it, and forces you to change your build.

I think it needs to be nerfed somehow but still remain a thing, like maybe he only takes half your items? Or maybe he doesn't actually get the benefit of them: I mean he doesn't need that considering he's fully capable of fighting you toe-to-toe when you have all of them and he has none. With the fight then resulting in you having to use your base character to the fullest to survive long enough until you get them back. Which means this part of the fight has to be fully capable of being done with no items, to be fair.

-I don't like how you can cheese him in any way, I think the fight should always be hard, but fair. To me he's the ultimate trial, and no matter how strong I am I want him to be there, able to push me to my limits. But he should never be impossible to beat, so in the same way he shouldn't be able to cheese you.


What I want out of Mithrix: Out of all the power-tripping this game gives you for your ultimate builds, he's always there as a fight you can pick to put you to the ultimate test. He's got an answer to everything you throw at him, and he's going to make you work for your victory. He's supposed to be a worthy opponent, and our battle will be legendary.



Now tell me what you guys think. Once again, I only wanna hear suggestions, and constructive criticism. No arguing, no insults. Lets give Hopoo proper feedback, and some food for thought on what they can do to make him a proper conclusion to this amazing game.

[Zeddy]

I think his health is a bit much and the formula for giving you back items is a bit too greedy. If the chance of getting stuff back increased over time, it'd make the last phase considerably less boring.

[angelar]

People (and Hopoo themselves) are making this matter into pulling teeth way more than it really is. You don't even have to change the encounter. As it stands, the reason the item thing is such a problem is because the rate at which it gives items back is laughable. Int the game generally, you do not get single items that have a heavy impact. They have an impact on your power when they stack or interact with other things. So when you struggle to damage him with all these items and you're given back ♥♥♥♥ like a Wax Quail, then a Harvester's Scythe, then an Infusion, and other items that don't help you exit the encounter sooner, you're far more likely to die than if you got a decent amount of damage items back in a reasonable time span.

It simply needs to give items back faster. Then nobody has to talk about whether it's a trash design or not. Hopoo themselves said it was not meant to be the hard part, and it clearly is a disaster in that regard. It just needs fixed. I get that they want it to be "you have to fight without your items!!!" but the thing is, the ostensible "Oh ♥♥♥♥" moment seems completely oblivious to how fast things generally go down in this game. You die in instants. Having to struggle ot get items back for 3 cycles of his attacks is an insane length of time, especially that late in the game.

They also probably need to re-evaluate how items are given back for characters that do not hit frequently or have poor opportunities to attack. This obviously heavily favors fast, ranged classes.

[Razaah !!!!]

He definetly should not get the items effects. It is immensely annoying and frustrating of him sucking your items out and then just one shot you in the first hit.
Pretty sure there is supposed to be one shot protection of some kind but it is as bad as it always was and it might as well not be in the game at all.

If you had any kind of ring on you when he stole your items its basically over when he hits you once. Good luck running with base speed. >_>

[NarbeVoguel]

The fight is ok. I think it's only the final phase that needs some fix. I can see how hopoo didn't mean for this phase to be the hardest, yet it can be because of how powerful your items can make him, and like someone stated above, the rate in which he gives you back the items is very frustrating. I once decided to make him weaker by scraping my strongest items, he killed me after a while (in the most funny way possible: a single sticky bomb I forgot to scrap), shortly before I got some of my items back and he was almost at 50% health, the items were: all my scrap of each tier and a warbanner... next fight, he gave me back a bustling fungus, cautious slug and an infusion, had he given me my focus crystals or at least my fuel cells, I would've survived and gotten back plenty of items.

I think he either needs to return them faster, or prioritize certain items (might be difficult given each player tackles the fight differently), or maybe half the effects on him. Some items are changed to work based on base HP %, and he benefits so much more from that than the player, like, stacking 3 or 4 med kits might be on ehell of a wrong idea if he insists on not giving them back...

[Lunacy]

If he didn't get to use every item he takes, it'd be fair. You both are at a weakened state, but right now he's too powerful has the ability to 1shot you unfairly if you can't burst him down before he takes everything.

[vandal_vanir]

It seems like either you have the DPS to burst him down or you don't. I like the idea of the boss having items to fight you with but depriving you of your own items feels like a bridge too far. It's like if the end boss scales to fight you, cool, but simultaneously de-leveling the player is a bit much. Many people are finding when faced with their own gear they die instantly. That the devs didn't predict this outcome seems even more odd.

One idea would be the boss matches you drop for drop. So every item you get he gets a random item from the same rarity. Thus you can fight him after 50 stages/power-grinding via sacrifice but you'll only make him stronger. Though that still may result in a hilariously one-sided fight.

[Bread-kun]

In his current state I would take loop and obliterate over fighting mithrix 100% of the time. The novelty of fighting him and going through his stage once is fun. Doing it repeatedly is such a massive ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ slog. The stage takes ages to go through if you didnt get enough mobility, the fight is absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in stage 3 depending on how you built and you either need to purposely tank your build prior to the fight or walk in so obscenely overpowered that you just kill him before he even fully steals your items.

Its a cool thing, on your first playthrough. I would never choose to go to the moon ever again, though.

[Grumpy Old Guy]

Mithrix is a bad boss and I'll tell you why.

First off he's entirely too easy to cheese. He can't target you on the pillars at all, and any character with decent ability to stay airborn (like artificer) can kill him with almost no threat at all.

Secondly, he has real issues climbing the ramps in his stage. You can cheese the whole fight just climbing the ramp and jumping off. He really needs to be more able to deal with enemies in the air.

Thirdly, his hp pool gets MASSIVE late in the runs. Between the fact that he's really not much of a threat and his insane hp on runs with lots of loops the fight becomes a really boring slog.

Now onto the elephant in the room. Stealing items.

There are a lot of issues with why this is a problem.

First of all the items were in no way shape or form balanced around the idea of being used against the player. This effectively changes the entire run. You absolutely do NOT want to fight him with a tesla coil or barbed wire as Loader or Merc. No one wants to let him get a crowbar. Cronobaubles and the seeker missiles also doom you.

This effectively turns the items into traps for new players, leaving very little in the way of being able to outplay what he can do.

Another problem is how you get the items back, you have to damage him, but there is no telling what you get back and when. Did you have 4 feathers and some rose bucklers? Well good luck killing him when you got back 4 rusty keys and a wax quail.

The issue is that his other phases are all a joke, and his final phase is a DPS race. You either kill him and skip it, or you will more than likely die. That's not fun.

I don't dislike the idea of him stealing items. That's a good idea, but WHAT he steals and WHEN is VERY important. I wouldn't mind him nabbing random items throughout the fight and then losing them at certain hp levels, but even then there are items he should just never be getting.

Dio's friend comes to mind, cautious slug, med kits, crowbars, Tesla coil, Barbed wire, some really good combinations for you become death sentences.

And that's the core of the problem. The game gives you a slew of items that gradually make you stronger. Some of those items have really cool interactions with each other that make for incredibly fun runs, I don't want that lost because I have to sit back and consider how it's going to possibly kill me if he gets them.

The dev's already said they didn't want people not taking items specifically because of mithrix, which is exactly what's happening.

That's pretty much it. He's way too easy, and all his difficulty boils down to him nabbing your stuff and one shotting you with it. That's just not super fun in my opinion, and the gimmickiness of the fight is such a buzz kill that after I beat him with a few characters the fight was so boring I just wanted it over and that feeling alone is enough for me to realize he's not that well done.

It's not that he's hard, it's that when I win I don't feel like I really did anything special and when I get one shot after being unkillable for two hours it just feels cheap.

Think about how bad Dark Souls would be if at the final boss there was a mechanic where you either one shot him or he one shot you? It's the climax of the game, If you flub the climax that's like making the best cake in the world and as you're putting on the frosting you drop the thing. Sure it's still gonna taste great, but now it's in pieces and on the floor, and you won't remember how amazing it was, you're going to remember that you ate cake off the floor.

[Jimmy Hunter]

Outside of the item stealing, he's still a bullet sponge that takes a while to down. His damage output on even minor swings is ridiculous, while his Visions of Heresy tickle you. Even on his first phase, his overhead swing is enough to do thousands upon thousands of damage by the 45 minute mark on Monsoon. That could be dialed back a bit, since even on Drizzle he hits hard enough for OSP to chime in from the beginning of the fight. Let him scale a bit, make us feel like he's unleashing more and more of his power as we go through phases instead of a 1-shot fest.

His "fan" attack with the lines spinning around him could use a little more time to Telegraph where they'll erupt after they stop spinning. If you're not next to Mithrix, they might as well be fan blades since the spin fairly fast. If you get hit, it's either OSP or you're dead. A little more leeway would be welcome. This isn't TERA Online where everyone has an I-frame to get out instakills.

His 2nd phase with the random adds could really use less fliers since they're a pain for both Merc and Loader to down. They also get pushed away with some high knockback attacks and can end up glitched outside the arena, unable to be targeted.

[B〄F Altonator]

I would like for his final phase to have random lunar items appear to help you damage him enough to get your items back.
For melee characters you could pick up visions of heresy for a ranged attack, thereby staying away from razorwire if you picked that up.
Strides of heresy could allow you to dodge and heal.
Shaped glass would allow you to do more damage.
And so on.

[Garble]

I like Mithrix.
/rant

[galdon2004]

I feel the level needs to be bigger with a more epic buildup to the encounter, and he needs a more varied moveset with lower damage but greater ability to land hits.

As for the final phase, the only way I can see something like it working would be if he did a move where he knocks all your items out of you, and they fly up into the air and gradually rain down from the sky, allowing you to reclaim your power while fighting him. This difference might work because he wouldn't become "kill you in one shot" overpowered like he does when inheriting all your damage items.

Otherwise, I would say scrap the final phase entirely. And I would lean more towards that; the gimmick of taking away all the stuff you worked to collect just doesn't feel good. Gamefeel should trump everything else. You want the game to feel good to play; as long as the player is having fun they will enjoy it no matter how difficult it gets.

[Noba]

I think Mithrix should have a blacklist of items, and for the items he takes, he should get the effects of either none of them, or the effects of 1 of each, or the effects of a stack of items - a specific number based on specific parameters

[Brandi]

Originally posted by Garble Master:

I like Mithrix.
/rant

[zero]

hes meh, and goes aganist the whole point of the game.

he himself for the first 3 stages is fine, albeit very quick to end you if you get bad rng in defense items, 4th stage is just bad, you either kill him before he does anything, or he takes all your items and all your work is pointless, the point of an end game boss is to challange you with everything you have acquired throughout the game (imagine playing dark souls and going to fight gwyn and it just strips you to a level 1 naked babe, dumb eh?)

if he just copied your items and it became your items vs his items, that would be something different, but he full on takes them.

and as for the level itself: interesting once, boring 3.5 minute slog every other time, that ends in another 3.5 minute slog back, which ironically, is JUST enough time for the slower characters to bearly make it in, if you get caught ONCE and have no speed items due to rng, you can straight up fail on some characters.

fix the 4th phase, shorten the level OR have things to do on the level (risk of rain 1 had sections with upgrades/things to do to help fight the boss) and the whole thing would be less tiresome