Bison Steak? Is this item actually any good?

[Blu]

So, what is the point of this item and why did it replace one of the only common healing items? Am I missing something? +25HP is absolutely meaningless in a game where you can be hit with literally hundreds damage in a single instance in the first loop. Fresh Meat at least served a purpose in Monsoon since the health regen is massively reduced there.

[Ittrix]

I can only imagine early game where you only have 200 HP or so...

It replaced meat, which was basically HP regen on kill. I suppose in the past the devs made Monster Teeth explicitly *not* do something like that because they didn't want the item to ever be that passive. I wouldn't be too shocked if they looked at meat and undid it for the same reason.

... Still. Bison Steak gets redundant within about 5 minutes. Item is bad.

[Lunacy]

Originally posted by Ittrix:

... Still. Bison Steak gets redundant within about 5 minutes. Item is bad.

Better than the 6 hp heal worth of regen it used to be imo
at least if you go for some kind of shield generator build it synergizes with that, and it's an alternative way to gain health outside of infusion

[Blu]

Originally posted by Lunacy:

Originally posted by Ittrix:

... Still. Bison Steak gets redundant within about 5 minutes. Item is bad.

Better than the 6 hp heal worth of regen it used to be imo
at least if you go for some kind of shield generator build it synergizes with that, and it's an alternative way to gain health outside of infusion

Yes, but that regen is extended over a period of three seconds per stack and it adds on top of your base regen. Regen in Monsoon is extremely bad so you kind of take what you can get. A 25HP buff is basically meaningless past the second stage regardless of build or mode. It's just a free scrap item.

[Edifier]

Originally posted by Boberto:

So, what is the point of this item and why did it replace one of the only common healing items? Am I missing something? +25HP is absolutely meaningless in a game where you can be hit with literally hundreds damage in a single instance in the first loop. Fresh Meat at least served a purpose in Monsoon since the health regen is massively reduced there.

On white you have these healing items

Bustling Fungus
Monster Tooth
Medkit
Cautious Slug

If want to increase health you got the Topas Brooch and Personal Shield Generator and they are still on the white item list.

[CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate]

Originally posted by game:

I think it should increase HP by 25 or x% whichever is higher so it will scale into the late game

That would make it better than infusion. Infusion caps at +100 health per stack.

Are you saying that infusions are bad?

Honestly, I think bison steaks are fine as they are. They're like 1/4 an infusion paid up front.

Considering that Topaz Brooch is capped at your max health, and Personal Shield Generator scales with your max health, this just makes them better. Each bison steak will give 25 hp plus 2 shields per personal shield generator, and increase the cap of your over shields by that amount as well.

[Fill-Lips]

Bison steak is good, old steak was garbage since it was flat hp/regen that got out scaled very hard.

[Ittrix]

Originally posted by CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate:

Are you saying that infusions are bad?

Yes.

[CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate]

Originally posted by Ittrix:

Originally posted by CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate:

Are you saying that infusions are bad?

Yes.

Then you and I will have to disagree.

[Terotrous]

A way to give it an interesting niche might be if the +25 hp it gives you is applied last, after anything else that modifies your HP. This gives it great synergy with anything that reduces your base hp.

For example, if you have 500 base HP and 5 bison steaks. You have 500 x 1.0 + 25 * 5 hp = 625 (your health multiplier is 1.0 because nothing is affecting it). Now you pick up Shaped Glass. Your health is now 500 x 0.5 + 25 * 5 = 375, rather than the 312 it would be if Bison Steak was applied first.

[CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate]

Originally posted by Terotrous:

A way to give it an interesting niche might be if the +25 hp it gives you is applied last, after anything else that modifies your HP. This gives it great synergy with anything that reduces your base hp.

For example, if you have 500 base HP and 5 bison steaks. You have 500 x 1.0 + 25 * 5 hp = 625 (your health multiplier is 1.0 because nothing is affecting it). Now you pick up Shaped Glass. Your health is now 500 x 0.5 + 25 * 5 = 375, rather than the 312 it would be if Bison Steak was applied first.

You are asking for health, which is already more powerful than shields, to be buffed further. Health can be regenerated immediately upon taking damage by your regeneration. Shields cannot, and require you to not take damage for some time. Health regen can completely negate damage over time effects. Shield regen is completely negated by any damage over time effect.

Shaped glass is you trading a powerful stat for damage. There are many other ways to get damage in the game. I've had builds that let me stack hundreds of bleed stacks in a second, and enemies just melted at 4 hours in. I didn't need raw damage.

Over-shields also have their own drawback in that there is no cap to how many you can lose in a single hit. Don't argue with me that you shouldn't be hit, because then why bother even having this argument about bison steaks or health at all then? If you're never hit, just don't worry about it. The simple fact that this argument is happening proves that even the best player can get hit, and should worry about it.

The fact is, health is powerful against chip damage where shields are not, and health has a cap on how much you can lose in a hit where over-shields does not. Bison Steaks and Infusions both add to health directly which alone makes them stronger than some people are giving them.

[TheOutwardRug44]

Originally posted by CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate:

Originally posted by Terotrous:

A way to give it an interesting niche might be if the +25 hp it gives you is applied last, after anything else that modifies your HP. This gives it great synergy with anything that reduces your base hp.

For example, if you have 500 base HP and 5 bison steaks. You have 500 x 1.0 + 25 * 5 hp = 625 (your health multiplier is 1.0 because nothing is affecting it). Now you pick up Shaped Glass. Your health is now 500 x 0.5 + 25 * 5 = 375, rather than the 312 it would be if Bison Steak was applied first.

You are asking for health, which is already more powerful than shields, to be buffed further. Health can be regenerated immediately upon taking damage by your regeneration. Shields cannot, and require you to not take damage for some time. Health regen can completely negate damage over time effects. Shield regen is completely negated by any damage over time effect.

Shaped glass is you trading a powerful stat for damage. There are many other ways to get damage in the game. I've had builds that let me stack hundreds of bleed stacks in a second, and enemies just melted at 4 hours in. I didn't need raw damage.

Over-shields also have their own drawback in that there is no cap to how many you can lose in a single hit. Don't argue with me that you shouldn't be hit, because then why bother even having this argument about bison steaks or health at all then? If you're never hit, just don't worry about it. The simple fact that this argument is happening proves that even the best player can get hit, and should worry about it.

The fact is, health is powerful against chip damage where shields are not, and health has a cap on how much you can lose in a hit where over-shields does not. Bison Steaks and Infusions both add to health directly which alone makes them stronger than some people are giving them.

Think about every time you had just 1 blood infuser and your health at any point dropped below 100...if you didn't have that item you would be dead

[Ittrix]

Originally posted by TheOutwardRug44:

Originally posted by CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate:

You are asking for health, which is already more powerful than shields, to be buffed further. Health can be regenerated immediately upon taking damage by your regeneration. Shields cannot, and require you to not take damage for some time. Health regen can completely negate damage over time effects. Shield regen is completely negated by any damage over time effect.

Shaped glass is you trading a powerful stat for damage. There are many other ways to get damage in the game. I've had builds that let me stack hundreds of bleed stacks in a second, and enemies just melted at 4 hours in. I didn't need raw damage.

Over-shields also have their own drawback in that there is no cap to how many you can lose in a single hit. Don't argue with me that you shouldn't be hit, because then why bother even having this argument about bison steaks or health at all then? If you're never hit, just don't worry about it. The simple fact that this argument is happening proves that even the best player can get hit, and should worry about it.

The fact is, health is powerful against chip damage where shields are not, and health has a cap on how much you can lose in a hit where over-shields does not. Bison Steaks and Infusions both add to health directly which alone makes them stronger than some people are giving them.

Think about every time you had just 1 blood infuser and your health at any point dropped below 100...if you didn't have that item you would be dead

Not really. OSP protects you from that sort of thing by limiting the damage of the attack to 90% of your max health and shields. That's what is happening when your HP drops that low.
Most enemies you're actually afraid of are going to make an absolute joke of 25-100 extra HP.

Let's say you just got to "very hard" on the difficulty slider. That'd be about 9 level ups. A lesser wisps' base attack is going to be 4 + (9 * .8), for 11.2. If it's an overwhelming elite, it'll have twice the damage. 22.4. A wisps' attack does 150% damage. 33.6 damage. There's three shots. 100.8 damage. Each shot will place a bomb that does half the damage. 150.8 damage.
To take that much extra damage, you'd need one infusion fully charged and another halfway charged, or 6 bison steaks. For a tier 1 elite lesser wisp hitting you *once*. The enemy with the lowest attack in the game.

Repeat the same thing with a Greater Wisp, now. 15 + (9*3) for a base damage of 42. Double it for an elite, which is 84. Their attacks do 300% damage, but that's at max so say you get caught between them for 200% each. 168. There's two of them. 336. Overloading, so balls explode after that do half the damage. 504 damage. 5 Infusions, or 20 Bison Steaks.

The solution isn't to outbulk it or outheal it. It's to avoid getting hit dead on by an Overwhelming Greater Wisp in the first place, because it's gonna kill you. You could have movement items to avoid it, or damage items to kill it quickly so it's no longer a threat. With lots of healing, you can take the hit from one blast, proc OSP, then heal quickly before the lightning ball goes off so you don't die.

All of these things seem a heck of a lot better to me than being able to take two blasts dead on as opposed to one.
I mean heck, if you find old threads you'll see people constantly talking about how absolutely broken shaped glass was, since back then it didn't remove OSP. A greater wisp didn't do 504 damage. It did 1, because you had 10 HP. You'd then laugh and shoot it once with commando and be back at full health. The Greater Wisp would also die. Actually, it'd die before it shot you. You just wouldn't care if it *did* shoot you.

[CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate]

Originally posted by Ittrix:

Originally posted by TheOutwardRug44:

Think about every time you had just 1 blood infuser and your health at any point dropped below 100...if you didn't have that item you would be dead

Not really. OSP protects you from that sort of thing by limiting the damage of the attack to 90% of your max health and shields. That's what is happening when your HP drops that low.
Most enemies you're actually afraid of are going to make an absolute joke of 25-100 extra HP.

Let's say you just got to "very hard" on the difficulty slider. That'd be about 9 level ups. A lesser wisps' base attack is going to be 4 + (9 * .8), for 11.2. If it's an overwhelming elite, it'll have twice the damage. 22.4. A wisps' attack does 150% damage. 33.6 damage. There's three shots. 100.8 damage. Each shot will place a bomb that does half the damage. 150.8 damage.
To take that much extra damage, you'd need one infusion fully charged and another halfway charged, or 6 bison steaks. For a tier 1 elite lesser wisp hitting you *once*. The enemy with the lowest attack in the game.

Repeat the same thing with a Greater Wisp, now. 15 + (9*3) for a base damage of 42. Double it for an elite, which is 84. Their attacks do 300% damage, but that's at max so say you get caught between them for 200% each. 168. There's two of them. 336. Overloading, so balls explode after that do half the damage. 504 damage. 5 Infusions, or 20 Bison Steaks.

The solution isn't to outbulk it or outheal it. It's to avoid getting hit dead on by an Overwhelming Greater Wisp in the first place, because it's gonna kill you. You could have movement items to avoid it, or damage items to kill it quickly so it's no longer a threat. With lots of healing, you can take the hit from one blast, proc OSP, then heal quickly before the lightning ball goes off so you don't die.

All of these things seem a heck of a lot better to me than being able to take two blasts dead on as opposed to one.
I mean heck, if you find old threads you'll see people constantly talking about how absolutely broken shaped glass was, since back then it didn't remove OSP. A greater wisp didn't do 504 damage. It did 1, because you had 10 HP. You'd then laugh and shoot it once with commando and be back at full health. The Greater Wisp would also die. Actually, it'd die before it shot you. You just wouldn't care if it *did* shoot you.

It's good that you provided some numbers, but how often are you at a level where your character's natural hit points are such that 25 more hit points would allow you just one more hit against that greater wisp? You said it deals 168 damage on Very Hard, so how often might you be less than 25 or so hp from a breaking point? 169, 337, 505, 673, 841, 1009, 1177, 1345...

If you have a shield generator or two, this rises to 27 or 29 hp from these cutoffs. Now this bison steak will let you absorb another hit in conjunction with the rest of your health, where you couldn't before.

I know, the goal isn't to get hit repeatedly. Sometimes though, there's just so much going on, it's hard to track it all and things happen.

[gachi is manly]

It feels slightly better now to have multiple of the item than it used to when it was the regen effect that only scaled up the time it lasts. When you're killing things pretty much constantly by mid-game, having the old steak regen last longer was really quite worthless. One of the worst items to have multiple of prior to the change.

So, really, it went from an item that sucked but was nice to have at least one of early on, to an item that still sucks but feels better to have multiple stacks of it than it used to.

[Ittrix]

Originally posted by CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate:

It's good that you provided some numbers, but how often are you at a level where your character's natural hit points are such that 25 more hit points would allow you just one more hit against that greater wisp? You said it deals 168 damage on Very Hard, so how often might you be less than 25 or so hp from a breaking point? 169, 337, 505, 673, 841, 1009, 1177, 1345...

If you have a shield generator or two, this rises to 27 or 29 hp from these cutoffs. Now this bison steak will let you absorb another hit in conjunction with the rest of your health, where you couldn't before.

I know, the goal isn't to get hit repeatedly. Sometimes though, there's just so much going on, it's hard to track it all and things happen.

The issue is that the greater wisp does more damage than your HP bar in the first place.
I mean I'm maybe level 10 when 'very hard' rolls around on rainstorm. Lower for monsoon. I'm gonna have 400 HP or so... with an infusion i'll be at 500. It doesn't matter if I'm low on health or not the greater wisp is still gonna thwack me either way.
If you have enough bison steak and infusions yeah the cut off might happen and save your life. With procs. they'll save your life all the time without you realizing it by thinning the horde before it gets too hard to track it all and things happen.

At the end of the day, I'd rather have a wisp jar than a handful of infusions. They'll take out all the little wisps and I won't be low on HP when I do happen to get scraped by something dangerous.
Either that or lots of healing so even though I do take bumps and scrapes I quickly heal it off and am ready for the big hits.
Or even movement speed so I just get hit way less often.


They're like chronobaubles. They aren't *useless*, and every now and then they come in handy. I'd still usually rather have something else, though.