how to play this on expert?

[the.smart.engineer.2009]

on hard, i do pretty well by looking at the cubes, checking where my arms are and planning the the next few moves. then, i look at the cubes again and repeat. in other words, i react to what i see.

on expert, this is impossible. i often do not have the chance to make a plan before the cubes are already gone. sometimes, i have to look in two directions at once to see all the arrows, but i am too slow for that.
if i focus on a single arm, it becomes easy again but of course makes me lose.

am i expected to memorize the cubes on expert?

[Alternity]

Originally posted by killboydotcom:

Well it wouldn't be a very long-lasting game if the average person could nail down Expert mode in 10 hours. You hit blocks with swords, not exactly a lot of depth here. Your hand-eye coordination will improve with time, and the game will start to flow and be more rewarding then. If that's not something you're interested in, then this is not the game for you.

I did nail Expert OST in about 10 hours though, so idk...

[the.smart.engineer.2009]

i managed to beat 23 finally. i could already do most of the sequences error free many times, so it just came down to luck on this one. which makes me dislike this level. it doesn't make sense for a skill based game to force the player to try the same thing dozens of times until he gets lucky once.

then i played 23a (should be the one where you have to get 230k points) and managed this on my first attempt.
the difficulty gap between these two is *huge*

[Tenor Sounds]

Originally posted by the.smart.engineer.2009:

i managed to beat 23 finally. i could already do most of the sequences error free many times, so it just came down to luck on this one. which makes me dislike this level. it doesn't make sense for a skill based game to force the player to try the same thing dozens of times until he gets lucky once.

then i played 23a (should be the one where you have to get 230k points) and managed this on my first attempt.
the difficulty gap between these two is *huge*

From my experience the game doesn't require you to be lucky. It seems like your particular playstyle does though, you hit some sort of block early on.

This is what I'll say: if you're actually thinking and planning out your arm movements, that's good. But doing that at higher and higher speeds just requires practice and improving your reaction time, there's no short-cut for that. That's why people are saying to practice, because that's how you improve such things. I would recommend practicing Hard mode at higher speeds, add disappearing notes to help train you to look further up the track and better at planning out your moves. Etc.

You can brute-force your way through, but that's generally not very rewarding on its own and as you say you don't find it particularly fun. You can check off the box that says you beat a thing, but you didn't beat it the way you felt rewarded you as a player.

As a beginner you are unconsciously unskilled, you don't know how much you need to learn.
As a novice you are consciously unskilled, you know what you need to do but you need to work on your proficiency.
As a journeyman, you are consciously skilled. You are proficient, but you must put your full conscious mind to the task at hand; that's likely where you are now.
As a master, you are unconsciously skilled. You are proficient without needing to consciously focus on the technique you're demonstrating. That's where "Expert" level tends to live for most players.

[the.smart.engineer.2009]

"It seems like your particular playstyle does though, you hit some sort of block early on."

yes. the blocks are sometimes too fast (or hiding each other) to see what needs to be done. i either need to already know the pattern or make a lucky guess.

in both cases, i sometimes get the timing wrong, which results in a shifted execution of a sequence of movements, meaning i mess up the entire block sequence. this means that if i have a limited number of allowed mistakes, i can treat the whole level as "instant fail".
(which means i have to try the same level a certain number of times to get a "lucky attempt")

also, if i make a mistake, i have no way to immediately see what the problem was since the blocks are long gone. the only way to find out is the slow motion mode. i have to find out the correct movement for each sequence, memorize it, then try the same thing at double speed, repeat a few times, and then beat the level like that.

i other words, i do not beat it because of fast reaction times or quick on the fly planning, which is what i want, but because i know in advance what i am going to do, which i find boring.

i never tried "lame modes", but i think expert+ in combination with "any direction goes" and "the color doesn't matter" should be the most fun for me.


"As a master, you are unconsciously skilled."

have to disagree (for this game). i believe there is not a lot of room to get (really) faster by training. the superior speed of experts comes from the fact that the blocks are always arranged the same way in each song. since they are predictable, you can train for that.

i would call it skill if you could handle random block arrangements at much higher speeds than a beginner can after a few hours, but i highly doubt that this is possible.
a true test of skill would be random blocks appearing at an increasing rate (making learning impossible) while making sure the arrows are always visible at any point. then, you could find the exact speed (blocks per second) at which a player becomes overwhelmed.

[Tenor Sounds]

Originally posted by the.smart.engineer.2009:

have to disagree (for this game). i believe there is not a lot of room to get (really) faster by training. the superior speed of experts comes from the fact that the blocks are always arranged the same way in each song. since they are predictable, you can train for that.

Trust me, if you focus on technique over memorization you'll get better at "sight reading" songs naturally.

[killboydotcom]

"Trust me, if you focus on technique over memorization you'll get better at "sight reading" songs naturally."

Absolutely. No other way to explain being able to jump into an Expert/Expert+ song and do quite well the first run through, but I do manage to sometimes and so do my friends.

[Rutabaga]

I mean, attitude is probably the first thing to fix. Is it the game that is dumb, or do you need to practice more, learn new things? Assuming that you want to learn to beat songs on expert, or expert+. Clearly it's not memorization as many people, my self included, can play both new dlc songs and mod songs on expert and often win the first time, without practicing.

Playing on the harder difficulties is not easy, but as with all rythm games, what you really need to learn is how to process the information coming at you fast enough. So not focusing on the blocks you are slashing now, but looking ahead a bunch of blocks, so that you can plan while the song is running, is what will help you get ahead. Then ofc, anyone claiming that memorization isn't part of it i think is talking complete nonsense. You'll develop a feel for patterns and rythm as you play songs over and over, and that will help you improve. Maybe it's one particular pattern in a song that is tripping you up. Might be a good idea to pay extra close attention to that part next time, cause there's always a certain flow to the blocks that allows you to get through if you are planning your slashes right.

Also, if this is your first rythm game, don't expect to playing it like a veteran instantly. I played Dance Dance Revolution, BeatMania, Pop n Music, guitar hero and all that stuff since back on the PS1 and it still took me like a week before i started beating songs on expert. It just takes a bit of time, patience and experience some times.

Basically, the tips i think are most useful to get to the next level is:

1. Don't be afraid to fail. just try to make it a bit further than you did last time. See the progress you are making, don't focus on winning or losing.
2. Eyes on the horizon, not at what's right in front of your nose. You'll never be able to clear tougher songs like that.
3. Just don't give up. If you were trying to play guitar, would you expect to shred like a rock god as soon as you pick it up? Sure this is a game, but it's also a physical and mental challenge to keep track of it all. It requires practice.

[Lulloser]

I can just repeat what the others said, I don't memorize songs. I remember starting with Custom songs and most of them were way too hard for me, still kept trying even with no fail on and trying to land some combo chains.
Now I go back to those hard songs I thought impossible and they seem way too slow for me.
I can't play slow songs anymore I need the speed to do it right xD

[Tenor Sounds]

Originally posted by the.smart.engineer.2009:

the superior speed of experts comes from the fact that the blocks are always arranged the same way in each song. since they are predictable, you can train for that.

i would call it skill if you could handle random block arrangements at much higher speeds than a beginner can after a few hours, but i highly doubt that this is possible.

Your first point sounds like an assumption on your part, and the scenario you outline in your second point is absolutely reasonable based on my experience with the game. Don't know what else to tell ya.

[[MM] WMan22]

Friendly reminder that the top 100 players of beat saber were newbies to rhythm games once too, and just as unable to complete even your average hard difficulty of a rhythm game, let alone expert. But they practiced.

In Beat Saber, there are 12 invisible note lanes a directional block can come from laid out in a grid in front of you.

The reason people are telling you to the answer is to practice is because inevitably as you play more, you'll learn to recognize set patterns that exist in every chart but at different speeds, since there are only so many patterns that the game can throw at you before you memorize them all.

You don't have to memorize the actual songs themselves, just the patterns. For some people, they don't even consciously realize this is the secret to their skill at rhythm games and that they are not, in fact, doing raw "Sight reading" of a song (as in just reading each individual note as they come and reacting accordingly) but rather just recognizing a pair of notes and doing what they know to do but at a speed the song dictates.

It's half visual, half rhythm, all instinct after a point. The actual notes become a blur at high end play and if you try to track each individual one with your eyes you're going to have a really rough time of things because that's not what people do.

For example, when you see a group of notes next to each other but to the side of you that look like ^ v ^ v and are the same color it means to twirl your arm in a circle. But if that same pattern is directly in front of you and consists of an alternation between red and blue boxes, that means play the notes with your VR controllers like you're using the drums but the drums are both above and below where you're swinging your drumsticks.

My advice is to try to tap your fingers on the table to half of an amen break (It doesn't have to be that fast of an amen break, take your time trying to get the basic concept down in as slow of a motion you need then gradually speed up from there) meaning use one hand to tap only half of the drum hits. Once you get that down, don't stop that motion with your hand while you add in your other hand's fingers to complete the full amen break while your other fingers are still doing the half of it you were already doing.

That means you're technically doing half of a rhythm with each hand which is more beginner speed, but when you add in your other hand, you're now doing a quite impressive amen break with your fingers.

At first it will feel like trying to pat your head while rubbing your stomach, but with enough practice you'll understand the concept of how rhythm games are actually quite intuitive once you come to grips with the basic concept of combining half times with each hand to create a full time.

[Enorats]

First - don't play the campaign. It's truly terrible. Miserable. It's full of stupid things like requiring you to miss, not go over a certain combo, maximum scores, maximum hand movement.. Just don't do it. The game was made for free play, and that campaign was added a couple weeks ago. It's awful.

Originally posted by the.smart.engineer.2009:

and planning the the next few moves.

There's your problem. You don't plan.

Part of it is memorization. You'll always do better on a song you're familiar with. Once you've done it a couple times and have a feel for whatever patterns and/or tricks may be in the map, you'll improve.

Really though, memorization is only a very small part of it. I can go into most expert+ songs for the first time and do just fine. Half the new ones I completed on the first attempt, with many at S rank.

What it really comes down to is just straight up reacting. Play long enough and you'll find that you're noting what's coming and reacting to it more or less automatically. When they added the "disappearing arrows" option, it didn't even trip me up in the slightest. Even on a song I'd never seen before, I was simply playing normally without any extra attention to watching the arrows or planning anything. My brain was already doing all that in the background, and I was simply along for the ride. It was a truly strange experience, as I hadn't even realized the degree to which playing had become automatic until trying that mode.

Another example - some of the new expert+ songs have sequences that are absolutely insane. Many of them I can make it through just fine though, often without even missing an arrow. The thing is though - even after dozens of times through the song I couldn't even begin to tell you what the "pattern" to it is. I don't have it memorized, because I'm not really paying attention to it in that way. Instead, I'm seeing and reacting to certain patterns before really making any real decision to do so.

My best advice is this: Don't give up. Whatever wall you feel like you've hit, we've all been there. My first week of trying expert mode felt impossible. Expert+ songs were insane, and the first wave of stock expert+ songs even more so. K/POP expert+ I'd fail out of within 30 seconds, even after being in the top couple hundred for the old expert mode songs. The fast mode K/POP song was even harder to get down. The absolute best thing about this game is the feeling of accomplishment you get when you first beat a level you thought was unbeatable. Better yet, the feeling that comes from realizing that a level you thought would require superhuman reflexes has become a cakewalk you can do while carrying on a casual conversation. Every wall can be overcome. Every time you feel like you couldn't possibly move or react any faster, a bit of practice will eventually make it feel easy.

Originally posted by the.smart.engineer.2009:

"It seems like your particular playstyle does though, you hit some sort of block early on."

yes. the blocks are sometimes too fast (or hiding each other)

While some of the beat saver songs (mod songs) can be different, the base game follows certain patterns. Expert+ breaks some of these, but even then it's pretty reliable.

When arrows are so close together that they're hiding each other what you're looking at is up/down/up/down/up/down/up/down 90% of the time. If not that, it's typically whatever move feels most natural - just try to hit the block in whatever method would be easiest and you'll almost always be right. Well made maps generally guide you through a "dance" where each move flows into the next without pause. Hard songs don't do this so much, because there aren't enough arrows. Expert songs a better, but still have pauses here and there. Expert+ requires nonstop flowing movement.

Originally posted by the.smart.engineer.2009:

i started with a question: am i expected to memorize the levels?
the answers is: no, but you are expected to train your muscle memory on cube sequences.

yes, i just started playing (10 hours), but i do not see the point in practicing cube sequences. i was hoping i could skip this part since i see no value in it. i want to solve things in principle, not through repetition.

i have reached the limit of my general purpose thinking speed, and this doesn't seem to improve no matter what i do. getting better at beat saber gets me nowhere.

When I took fencing in college, we practiced forms for days before they ever let us actually fight each other. Knowing how to move your sword from one position to any of the other guard positions the right way at a moment's notice was about the most important thing to learn. This game is no different (those fencing guard positions.. yeah, that's what you use to play this game single handed, whether you're realizing it or not). With time you begin to react to a sequence without thought. You won't even really register the arrows and their directions, instead you'll move through the motions on autopilot.

At the higher difficulty levels this is more or less required. Playing an expert+ song on fast mode doesn't give you any time to think or even stop moving.

[Damien]

It depends, if you are dancing then hard seems to be hard enough, but if you are just waving your hands and moving wrists accordingly, then expert and expert plus can be conquered.

[A Regular Italian Plumber]

You dont really memorize anything (at least not actively), you just get the muscle memory of how and where to strike to hit all the different box/arrow positions, then once hitting boxes becomes a reflex and not something you think about doing, you turn your brain off and just react to what's coming at you.

That 100th of a second where you're thinking about where to put your hands, or when to swing, is what keeps you from getting better. You literally cannot play this game at a high level AND think at the same time, it's literally 100% reaction and muscle memory.

[Zargsch]

It's not about memorizing everything or learning particular block patterns at all. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to play all the new songs on Expert right off the bat.

When I first played the game, I was immediately doing pretty well on Hard on all songs and figured I should step it up a notch, but Expert seemed absolutely and utterly *impossible* to me at the time.
Now I only play on sped up Expert, always trying to put as much force as possible into each swing, which to me is more enjoyable than Expert+.

The speed difference between a beginner and an experienced player is MASSIVE.

[Caboomling]

I think expert possible for most players, but expert+ mode for few player in age not more than 35.