Is there any reason to run Azimuth over Orca2?

[Rhapsody]

Azimuth does have one extra depth tube and captain's periscopes, and the junction box placement is better, but pretty much every other aspect is worse. Even the larger ballast advantage is mitigated by Orca2 having considerably better pumps and better system for handling flooding. What gives?

Orca2 has better guns, less self-destructive firing arcs especially for bot use, better capacitors, better diving suit placement, handles flooding better, has medical fabricator, much more storage space, same cargo space, superior pumps, two airlocks and dorsal docking port for good measure...

Many vanilla subs have received buffs over the years, but it seems Azimuth has been left behind. It should be tier 1 submarine or buffed with third turret installed for the stock configuration, improved pumps or diving suit locker placement, or medical fabricator. It doesn't even have any real speed advantage over Orca, and the silent running feature is next to useless.

TL;DR:

• Tier 1 submarine instead of tier 2 or reduce price
  
• QoL: Have turrets installed in all hardpoints by default or increase other supplies
  
• Add medical fabricator
  
• Improve pumps and diving suit locker placements or add other "quality of life features"

[Buggy Boy]

Maybe because you enjoy a challenge. Orca 2 can be modified in-campaign to be an absolute beast, making a mockery of anything but giant spinelings (which are rather stupidly OP for a non-abyss creature swarm IMO), something with less potential may actually provide more of a challenge (in the right hands, assuming you're capable of modifying the crap out of it during your campaign).

I myself prefer the smaller scout class, currently nearing the end of the single player campaign with bots in my own custom sub which started out very basic but I've modified quite a bit during my run. It's nowhere near as powerful as the Orca 2 has potential to be.

[TheSuit]

Originally posted by Buggy Boy:

Maybe because you enjoy a challenge. Orca 2 can be modified in-campaign to be an absolute beast, making a mockery of anything but giant spinelings (which are rather stupidly OP for a non-abyss creature swarm IMO), something with less potential may actually provide more of a challenge (in the right hands, assuming you're capable of modifying the crap out of it during your campaign).

I myself prefer the smaller scout class, currently nearing the end of the single player campaign with bots in my own custom sub which started out very basic but I've modified quite a bit during my run. It's nowhere near as powerful as the Orca 2 has potential to be.

Secret to killing giant spinelings is piercing ammo from coil gun or canisters from rail gun
Both hit the body parts multiple times

[Buggy Boy]

Originally posted by TheSuit:

Secret to killing giant spinelings is piercing ammo from coil gun or canisters from rail gun
Both hit the body parts multiple times

It's not too hard to kill them, but if two or three of them manage to get a few shots off at once they can really mess up your sub, kill crew before they have time to react, and send you into the abyss (and they will likely follow you all the way in, seen this a few times, even to the point where they and the abyss monster end up in a big melee with you and each other).

[Rhapsody]

Another option would be replacing Orca2's large hardpoint with a small one. It's supposed to be a scout, not attack sub, after all (even if it is something of a killer whale). That'd bring it in line with Azimuth in case the opposite cannot be done for whatever reasons. It wouldn't noticeably hinder Orca2 either, and would make Herja and especially Humpback less of an embarrassment too.

[frumple]

Off topic, but i'm curious why you'd say the Humpback is an embarrasment.

I'm kind of a noob at the game, and for sure that Clown Ballast near the nose of the Humpback is ridiculous and annoying, if slightly charming.

But, it's a fast sub, it's got good turret arcs, decent Supercapacitor capacity, and it comes with a Railgun which can be a good thing, or not.
Regardless, it's ventral and dorsal coverage is good, and it can shoot forward except the blind sport on the nose.

After plodding around in a Barsuk, it's really nice to have a sub that can slam the brakes and reverse at a moment's notice.

It's also got a fairly sensible layout, and all doors but one are already motion sensor controlled autodoors. One door and one hatch to wire and done.

I can't think of a weakness aside it maybe being a little small, but it's Attack class. It shouldn't have everything.
It already has fabs except the Research Station.

So, why embarrasment?

[Bookslayer10]

Originally posted by Rhapsody:

Another option would be replacing Orca2's large hardpoint with a small one. It's supposed to be a scout, not attack sub, after all (even if it is something of a killer whale). That'd bring it in line with Azimuth in case the opposite cannot be done for whatever reasons. It wouldn't noticeably hinder Orca2 either, and would make Herja and especially Humpback less of an embarrassment too.

I'd prefer my tier 2 submarines to have more weapons than a dugong. Azimuth should get more weapons or better weapons so that it's more in-line with the Orca-2.

Originally posted by frumple:

I can't think of a weakness aside it maybe being a little small, but it's Attack class. It shouldn't have everything.
It already has fabs except the Research Station.

So, why embarrasment?

I find Humpback has lots of power problems, meh mobility, mediocre storage space, a big blindspot on the bottom left unless you get a double coilgun instead of railgun, and probably the worst dive suit/airlock placement out of any sub in the game.

[Rhapsody]

Originally posted by frumple:

But, it's a fast sub, it's got good turret arcs, decent Supercapacitor capacity, and it comes with a Railgun which can be a good thing, or not.
Regardless, it's ventral and dorsal coverage is good, and it can shoot forward except the blind sport on the nose.

After plodding around in a Barsuk, it's really nice to have a sub that can slam the brakes and reverse at a moment's notice.

That is indeed what it is quite good for. However, for much of the second and third biomes, you don't actually need the railgun much if at all outside of abyss hunting, and even then chaingun with piercing ammo is better against latcher than regular shells.

Every tier 2 submarine is better than Barsuk so not much to add on that.

Originally posted by frumple:

It's also got a fairly sensible layout, and all doors but one are already motion sensor controlled autodoors. One door and one hatch to wire and done.

I can't think of a weakness aside it maybe being a little small, but it's Attack class. It shouldn't have everything.
It already has fabs except the Research Station.

The layout is actually terrible in an emergency. From automatic doors opening when you want to prevent more water or monsters rushing in to diving suit issues, to AI problems like bots being unable to patch some very obvious and easy to reach leaks, although it's been a while since I tested for those last time. It also has arguably worst capability to manage flooding, which need to be mitigated with multiple welders, and the only other characteristic it has above Orca2 is railgun for abyssal creatures and the few times you encounter a hostile Typhon.

It's not terrible but with my personal experience I can only summarize Humpback as I did. All vanilla subs have their issues and Humpback's probably aren't the worst, and you can even remedy them by rewiring the doors, I suppose. For me it always felt like it requires crew of tier 3 sub to run.

[frumple]

I am mega annoyed at having to manually open doors, so autodoors is a welcome bonus.
All doors can be rewired. It's not sub specific.

The diving suit storage is not conveniently placed, that is true. I leave diving suits scattered about after every dive.
Having extra suits is a must. I wish there was a way to store them in custom racks but alas.

The bigger problem is the somewhat silly engineering floor, but at least there are some pumps to help deal with flooding.
Some other subs have junction boxes on the bottom deck and that is just asking for trouble. Humpback's are spread out with batteries on top deck.

I haven't noticed any flooding as a result of some spots being left unwelded, so if that was an problem before it seems to have been fixed.
Maybe it's very bad with a small crew? I am playing with 12. A small army of Bots can run and patch the hull. I have not had problems with flooding.


Maybe it's a personal thing, but While Orca 2 is at least comparable if not outright better, the Typhoon seems pretty terrible. None of the Tier 2 subs appeal to me.

Humpback is the one that isn't terrible. Nothing about it i would say is embarrasing.

The balast tanks are not the easiest to reach, so hopefully only one gets smacked.

The Humpback is poor when it comes to buoyancy, and that makes the tanks even more of an issue.
The stupid room next to balast B doesn't help.
It's such a quick sub horizontaly, thanks to the yuge engine. But vertical movement is not it's strong suit.

No sub has perfect coverage, and Humpback has several blind spots.
It's very important to try and burn Mudraptors and Crawlers before they close in, although with at least 2 hull upgrades, Crawlers will have a very hard time getting int

I'm not a fan of the airlock. It works, but it's location is butt.

The very worst thing about the sub, is the oh-so-damn-annoying button that operates the airlock hatch from outside the sub.
You have to be in the exactly right position to highlight it, and have to make sweet love to it by the fire with the mouse cursor exactly the right way.
Why's it so hard to press one button!?


It isn't perefect. Buoyancy is something to keep in mind always. But it's large enough to be useful and difficult to sink, and small enough to position in such a way as to make turrets useful.
It's also oh so fast, (though at Tier 2, that's not so useful) it can outpace packs of creatures and lure them into other hostiles, or use speed to give the gunners extra time on the trigger.

As for the Railgun, i wish it was a Double Railgun instead, or Chaingun. That's my preference.

And the Barsuk is a feisty sub. It WILL flood at the slightest provocation but it can fight well if you have Pulse Lasers fore and top, and hug the bottom of the map.
Don't go looking for Latchers, but you can kill one if you're forced into it.
Also Molochs and Hammerheads.
None of this makes it very survivable, but a) it's a Barsuk and survivability is a dirty word on board that sub, and b) you're ideally trying to raise money to buy a Tier 2 sub, and being able to murder things for money is a definite plus.

Originally posted by Bookslayer10:

I find Humpback has lots of power problems, meh mobility, mediocre storage space, a big blindspot on the bottom left unless you get a double coilgun instead of railgun, and probably the worst dive suit/airlock placement out of any sub in the game.

Storage space is a little tight, agreed.
Mobility is poor up/down, but forwards and backwards, the Humpback flies. High Helm skill really helps, as do Talents related to Pumps.
It does have that blind spot, but every sub has a blind spot somewhere. This is one of the least awful ones.
Agreed about the dive suits. The airlock is meh.
Powr problems surprises me. I've had no problems whatsoever with one a single rod reactor and the batteries.
Maybe using fabs requires too much power?


Thanks for your thoughts. Apreciate it.

[frumple]

I tried testing the Humpback a little more.

I see now why you guys said diving suits and flooding are such a problem.
The Humpback has a huge vulnerability with respect to getting flooded and sunk. Most of the sub is ok but the engine room is a collossal weakness.

When it takes a big hit, the engine room floods near instantly, and the damage is difficult to deal with. Reactor control is certainly lost for a while.
It's such a large room, and very very difficult to deal with.

Try scattering diving suits on the mid deck, have spare suits as well. And avoid letting anything bigger than a Hammerhead attack from above/rear.


I still like the sub, but my opinion of it's worth has dramastically decreased.