Mudraptors Vs Crawlers

[McGarnagle]

there really isn't any difference except that the old crawler looked cool and the new one looks lame
but honestly they both -> swim around as small creatures solo or in packs
->bounce around the hull a bunch being annoying before someone shoots them
->are supposed to breach but are rarely ever seen inside the ship
->die easily
->fight in melee
this is zombies and skeletons in a D&D campaign ... we really didn't need both since they fill the role of "basic undead minion"
Thoughts?

[teravisor]

They are quite different though.
Crawlers can latch onto hull. Especially annoying in submarine's dead zone (hey, not everyone plays on OP subs!). Crawlers come in much bigger swarms than mudraptors
Mudraptors have shell that's really hard to crack. If you can't aim at its stomach/head they become hard to kill even under heavy fire. Mudraptors can also breach hatches (which aren't as durable as hull), especially if they ram into it (or you ram it into them).

If you don't see their differences, then you aren't looking.

Hull not being breached is either OP submarine problem with multiple armor layers or hull upgrade making hulls too strong, probably both. Try making glass submarine and you'll get your breaches and also you'll see all the fun going on outside.

P.S. I still remember Ultima IX game where skeletons revived themselves until you took at least one bone out of one and moved it far away from skeleton. While zombies split into torso and legs both attacking you separately.
Just because D&D and modern RPG games skimp on differences (although even in D&D they have different stats, resistances and equipment) between zombies and skeletons doesn't mean there shouldn't be any.

[Grimwulf]

Mudraptors are vastly different. They have armor, for one thing - in my experience, this makes them immune to harpoons (unless you hit a soft spot), immune to bleeding, and quite resistant to small firearms. Raptor bane works wherever you hit them, though.

They are much more effective at breaching hulls. If you don't see them inside your sub often, it's probably because you're playing on modded sub, or hang around Cold Caverns while upgrading your hull to 100% (which I believe is the reason Jovian Radiation was implemented in the first place). When someone breaches my sub, it's mudraptors in 80% cases.

[McGarnagle]

no one aims for the weakspot or even notices it, they just shotgun smg it to death and those are starting weapons (you can buy revolver rounds, smg mags and shotgun shells at every single station just like the fuel rods, they are always there)
also the art of the crawlers ... the upper torso, fin hands and humanoid head just seems wrong unless this is some lore with what happened to the aliens here, like crawlers used to be the aliens from the ruins i dunno about the story and why they look so silly but i like the legacy crawler better https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2671607136 vs https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2671607123

[teravisor]

Originally posted by McGarnagle:

no one aims for the weakspot or even notices it, they just shotgun smg it to death and those are starting weapon

They aren't "starting weapons", they're just "weapons" because all special weapons are basically their modification in one way or another. There's no better weapon, just different ones. And if you don't shoot in weak points, good luck, you can waste whole clip just to wound one or you can use whole clip to kill three, that's a huge difference. Especially when ammo is limited.
I, for sure, was literally dying to raptors that boarded my submarine until I learned about their armor and how to deal with it. And even in EVA with some OP melee weapon like boarding axe you can hit their shell like 10 times to kill one or hit their soft spots where it's stunned from each hit and dead in 2 hits.

Originally posted by McGarnagle:

also the art of the crawlers ... the upper torso, fin hands and humanoid head just seems wrong unless this is some lore with what happened to the aliens here, like crawlers used to be the aliens from the ruins i dunno about the story and why they look so silly

Ever thought why alien blood of crawlers, hammerheads, thalamus and pets is compatible enough with human blood to be used as its replacement without outright rejection? (just some psychosis, but who cares about that)

[Grimwulf]

Originally posted by McGarnagle:

no one aims for the weakspot or even notices it, they just shotgun smg it to death

Same can be said about any monster in the game, endworm included. But this isn't a smart or efficient approach (trying my best not to call it borderline stupid).

[McGarnagle]

i don't even feel attacked by that, because some monsters have obvious weak spots like a watchers eye or broken off plates of endworm armor
any game is always just, did we do damage? then keep doing it and don't die and you will win eventually and then things become just bags of HP you bash on until it's over, which is what mudraptors and crawlers are. they both act the same, swim around in little swarms maybe make those swarms bigger? not sure but i've only seem mudraptors and crawlers breach like once or twice, and the big rig r-29 (is what i use) it's FAR from an OP sub i changed it a bit to have 2 more hard points and it still has 3 blind spots and two of those are dead zones(aka nothing we can do except maneuver the sub into firing position and/or dive outside and deal with it) but they rarely breach ever

[McGarnagle]

also i made a meme about it cause i was bored
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2671634403

[teravisor]

Originally posted by McGarnagle:

i don't even feel attacked by that, because some monsters have obvious weak spots like a watchers eye or broken off plates of endworm armor
any game is always just, did we do damage? then keep doing it and don't die and you will win eventually and then things become just bags of HP you bash on until it's over, which is what mudraptors and crawlers are. they both act the same, swim around in little swarms maybe make those swarms bigger? not sure but i've only seem mudraptors and crawlers breach like once or twice, and the big rig r-29 (is what i use) it's FAR from an OP sub i changed it a bit to have 2 more hard points and it still has 3 blind spots and two of those are dead zones(aka nothing we can do except maneuver the sub into firing position and/or dive outside and deal with it) but they rarely breach ever

I just don't get one thing about you.
Maybe difference is miniscule and you never bothered to notice them...
But would you really happy if you remove all mobs but one just because all of them have HP bar?
There's a reason why modders add new mobs even if they don't bring anything principially new.

[McGarnagle]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2458524707
either way i still think mudraptors and crawler A.I. acts too much alike and the swarms might as be indentical in everything to spotting them on sonar to how to fight them to how to heal the wounds they cause if any at all

[Grimwulf]

Originally posted by McGarnagle:

either way i still think mudraptors and crawler A.I. acts too much alike

That makes you the only one.

[McGarnagle]

doubt it

[teravisor]

Originally posted by McGarnagle:

doubt it

Did you know that raptors don't attack husks, but crawlers do?
Did you know that crawlers have much bigger tendency to ignore sub in favor of dead bodies than raptors?
Did you know that crawlers are afraid of stronger creatures to the point they run away from them instead of attacking submarine? And they can run and disengage when wounded? While raptors can only temporarily retreat if hit by guns to make another attack after.
Did you know that nasonov affects raptors much stronger making them more inclined to attack submarine carrying it without artifact case while crawlers can still run away if they feel threatened?
Did you know that crawlers ignore doors and hatches in favor of hulls while raptors attack doors and hatches first?
Did you know that crawlers run from leucocytes while raptors ignore them? That crawlers ignore tiger threshers, but raptors run away from them?
Did you know that raptors, while spawn in group, do not stay as group and instead you can lure them 1 by 1 while crawlers act as a group and will follow that one crawler?
Did you know that raptors have weaker sight so it's easier to avoid them if you disable sonar without disabling lights?

I'm not even adding that when they end up outside of water crawlers act like fish out of water while raptors run&bite.

Oh, and husked crawler. If you don't recognize it, you're in for husk fun.

That truly makes you the only one.

[Greb]

Crawlers have a hidden secret ability that's far more insidious and dangerous than any Mudraptor - they consume corpses of giant monsters like Molochs and sit "inside" them while they do so, which causes your AI to just try blasting the hell out of them endlessly, only hitting the big monster corpse and never hitting the feasting Crawler inside it.

This makes them the defacto most annoying and dangerous creature on Europa, if you're using bots as your gunners anyway.

There's nothing like watching a bot use up multiple boxes of psychorium or pulse ammo trying to kill a single Crawler that isn't even a threat to the submarine, let me tell you!

Luckily it's easy to notice and just suspend gunnery tasks with a quick click, but if you're away or distracted..

[Rosh+]

Originally posted by Greb:

Crawlers have a hidden secret ability that's far more insidious and dangerous than any Mudraptor - they consume corpses of giant monsters like Molochs and sit "inside" them while they do so, which causes your AI to just try blasting the hell out of them endlessly, only hitting the big monster corpse and never hitting the feasting Crawler inside it.

This makes them the defacto most annoying and dangerous creature on Europa, if you're using bots as your gunners anyway.

There's nothing like watching a bot use up multiple boxes of psychorium or pulse ammo trying to kill a single Crawler that isn't even a threat to the submarine, let me tell you!

Luckily it's easy to notice and just suspend gunnery tasks with a quick click, but if you're away or distracted..

This problem is precisely the reason why most lobbies and crews consider piercing coilgun ammo the default ammo-type, and almost never switch from it, and personally why I use piercing exclusively in singleplayer.

[FourGreenFields]

Originally posted by teravisor:

without disabling lights?

To my knowledge, sight is unaffected by lights, and instead an assured detectability range.

Anyway, as for the topic. If I were to slap "classes" on the creatures, crawlers would be "generic cannon-fodder enemy" while mudraptor would be "generic powerfull enemy". Mudraptors are far stronger than crawlers, and along with tiger threshers the strongest thing that may enter your sub - and the strongest one to still be dangerous in a dry room.