Losing skills upon death in campaign.

[Mogg]

Couldn't find a but forum so here is where I will post it.
We lose skills respawning after death in campaign mode. We use no mods.
It's as if our characters get fully reset and then get a reapers tax debuff on top of that. Curing reaper's tax doesn't restore the lost skills.

[LykosNychi]

Nguyên văn bởi The Flaming Pike:

It seems clear the game has come to the point where there are different "schools of thoughts" between various Barotrauma players. Older players such as myself remember the times when dying in a multiplayer campaign meant you had to wait a long time - until the mission's end to be precise. We really, really didn't want to die back then! :captainclown:

I'm assuming some who are posting here weren't there back then. There's nothing wrong about that. Even if they weren't playing the game a couple of years back, it doesn't necessarily means newer players have a worthless opinion. They offer an "outsider's view" of the game which I think is a very good thing.

I understand veteran players can be a bit defensive sometimes concerning patch changes and they can be equally defensive with new players offering different visions of the game. I believe it's proof the game is very special for a lot of people and has a very dedicated, hardcore fanbase, which is awesome. You don't get those type of debates with any game. Only those with a little something unique - dare I say a "soul" - have that.

However I think that if you are giving your opinion on a crucial feature such as skill points, you need to play the game extensively ( perhaps up to 50-70 hours game time, not counting sub creation ) to figure out whether or not modifying that feature is worth it compared to status quo.

I'm in favor of status quo as stated in a previous post, but I think the option of removing skill loss in the campaign's settings is a viable option, eventually. However I think it should count as a "cheat" just like when you use in-game commands and thus make the session ineligible for achievements. My opinion is that there's still a line to be drawn between what a player wants in a game and the actual game. Then again, I feel obliged to point out that I'm a moderator, not a developer, so it's not up to me to decide. :captainsmooth:

Nothing quite like getting an unlucky depressurization event at the beginning of the round.

At least it always gave you ample time to go get a sandwich!

[Mogg]

Nguyên văn bởi The Flaming Pike:

However I think it should count as a "cheat" just like when you use in-game commands and thus make the session ineligible for achievements. My opinion is that there's still a line to be drawn between what a player wants in a game and the actual game. Then again, I feel obliged to point out that I'm a moderator, not a developer, so it's not up to me to decide. :captainsmooth:

Not really a cheat, but not gaining achievements for using an easy mode sounds fair. Achievements can be the rewards for playing "true mode" or in other words the devs preferred mode, and harder. If also this has some form of collectible cards, this too could be a thing one one only gets through playing on default settings or harder (if such a thing can be implemented). Some people care about achievements, some care about cards. There is also an aspect of obtaining a different ending in campaign mode, maybe, like some other games do.

[Buggy Boy]

Nguyên văn bởi Mogg:

Nguyên văn bởi The Flaming Pike:

However I think it should count as a "cheat" just like when you use in-game commands and thus make the session ineligible for achievements. My opinion is that there's still a line to be drawn between what a player wants in a game and the actual game. Then again, I feel obliged to point out that I'm a moderator, not a developer, so it's not up to me to decide. :captainsmooth:

Not really a cheat, but not gaining achievements for using an easy mode sounds fair. Achievements can be the rewards for playing "true mode" or in other words the devs preferred mode, and harder. If also this has some form of collectible cards, this too could be a thing one one only gets through playing on default settings or harder (if such a thing can be implemented). Some people care about achievements, some care about cards.

If that was the case, then you'd also have to play only with vanilla subs and no mods, workshop mods and subs can easily alter the game difficulty.

[Caeruleo]

Nguyên văn bởi Bago:

Nguyên văn bởi Rokvach:

It is intentional that skills reset once your character dies, even if you respawn with Reaper's tax. This was changed with the Among the Ancients update, the change was prompted because of the new talent system allows gaining skills too fast, that it was seen as necessary to just reset the skills rather than just lower them on death.

This is a bad design then. I hate losing progress in any game it sucks the fun right out, with only 2 players and the bots being too stupid to do simple tasks or killing themselves every sub breech. It now means on death either cheat stats back or reload. Reaper tax was supposed to be the balancer hope you add in an option to disable this stat loss.

Yeah, it's terrible. To me this game is most fun amidst all of the chaos, friends dying in stupid ways, your friend screaming and you walking in and seeing them being chewed to death by three mudraptors, that's where the game really shines.

But this system is a way to make it a really serious, slow paced game where everyone has a toolbelt and medic fatigues and plays super optimally because the alternative is not ever making any character progress.

It should just be an option in the lobby menu like the jovian radiation. I mean, my lobby is set to casual, the devs clearly recognize that many of their players want to play in a less serious way.

Just the other day we were in a really bad situation with a golden hammerhead in our blind spot constantly hitting us, with us stuck on the seabed, so I went out with a grenade launcher with one stun and a bunch of explosive grenades to kill it, not knowing that hammerheads were immune to stun. That would've been a really funny death if I didn't go from 100 weapons to 42 weapons, from 85 helm to 46 helm, from 35 medical to 6 medical.

I absolutely respect anyone who wants to play it that way, I mean no shade, but some of us want a casual, more jovial game, and there's no reason to prevent that from being an option.

I think it'd be best for there to just be a check box for losing all skills, and maybe (if it's left unchecked) an option to set percentage of skill loss on death. Like for my style of gameplay, losing 10-20% of skills gained would be fine. I just want to feel like the risk of death is sometimes worth it, whereas currently any situation where I'm likely to die is just absolutely not worth it at all, and to be avoided at all costs.

[Искорка]

Nguyên văn bởi Rokvach:

It is intentional that skills reset once your character dies, even if you respawn with Reaper's tax. This was changed with the Among the Ancients update, the change was prompted because of the new talent system allows gaining skills too fast, that it was seen as necessary to just reset the skills rather than just lower them on death.

The most stupid decision. People came to your game to play and have fun. In any case, there is a residue from death (such as, for example, the loss of things and time for rebirth (if any)), but with the loss of a skill, you don’t really want to continue the campaign (look at the percentage of people who completed the game ending). Do not confuse the survival of any game where things are lost and a rogue like isaac, where all the accumulated progress is lost. By itself, this type of game is garbage, you only drive away the audience in a game that is not to everyone's liking, judging by its appearance. I think that at least the option to save skills after death should be, and should also be enabled by default.

[Саныч]

Only skills are lost, talents and experience remain. Most of the players that I have seen act thoughtlessly and carelessly, like Terminators, and die. With careful and clever play, deaths are rare.
The loss of skills motivates you to play smart, not suicidal (if you do not lose anything, then you can not worry about anything and sacrifice yourself every time). The atmosphere of danger must not disappear.

Skill level has little effect on gameplay. Any character with starting skills normally performs his duties. Special conditions, such as the skill requirement for crafting an abyss suit, are rarely needed. One mechanic "homebody" will quickly develop this, make costumes, and then the skill is no longer needed and you can die.

Skills develop rapidly. Already by the middle of the game, you can have a maximum of 200 of your profile skill.
An accurate player who does not die and has a high level of skill will want to continue not to die and he will be valued a little higher than suicidal sailors.

What is the problem? Why do people want kindergarten conditions for themselves? I do not see any minuses and I see only pluses in such a policy of developers.

[Videogames]

My main question is why even implement reaper's tax as a mechanic if it was going to be immediately made irrelevant. Just like campaign outpost-evolution VS jovian-radiation.

It seemed like the point of reaper's tax was to allow progressive character progression in campaign with percentage penalty to death, so if you choose to "Respawn with penalty" but still get a new character it seems you're worse off than if you just started a new character entirely. (Speaking of it would be a nice QOL change if the GUI allowed us to change our character to respawn as in the tab menu GUI - instead of having to disconnect and reconnect to do it in the lobby)

Its not about "The game is too hard" its about any rational person expecting game mechanics to function the way they are explained to them. If that is how the devs want to make respawns work ( Basically just the old way respawns worked ) then that is their choice to make - just get rid of the UI fluff involved and the blatantly-false explanation of the "respawn penalty" and reaper's tax and there'd be no issue.

[Buggy Boy]

Nguyên văn bởi Videogames:

My main question is why even implement reaper's tax as a mechanic if it was going to be immediately made irrelevant. Just like campaign outpost-evolution VS jovian-radiation.

It seemed like the point of reaper's tax was to allow progressive character progression in campaign with percentage penalty to death, so if you choose to "Respawn with penalty" but still get a new character it seems you're worse off than if you just started a new character entirely. (Speaking of it would be a nice QOL change if the GUI allowed us to change our character to respawn as in the tab menu GUI - instead of having to disconnect and reconnect to do it in the lobby)

I suppose the advantage of not making an entirely new character is that you do keep your talents (last time I looked).

[LykosNychi]

Nguyên văn bởi Videogames:

My main question is why even implement reaper's tax as a mechanic if it was going to be immediately made irrelevant. Just like campaign outpost-evolution VS jovian-radiation.

It seemed like the point of reaper's tax was to allow progressive character progression in campaign with percentage penalty to death, so if you choose to "Respawn with penalty" but still get a new character it seems you're worse off than if you just started a new character entirely. (Speaking of it would be a nice QOL change if the GUI allowed us to change our character to respawn as in the tab menu GUI - instead of having to disconnect and reconnect to do it in the lobby)

Its not about "The game is too hard" its about any rational person expecting game mechanics to function the way they are explained to them. If that is how the devs want to make respawns work ( Basically just the old way respawns worked ) then that is their choice to make - just get rid of the UI fluff involved and the blatantly-false explanation of the "respawn penalty" and reaper's tax and there'd be no issue.

My understanding is that Reaper's Tax is not at all irrelevant.

Don't you keep talents and xp, but just lose skills? Reaper's Tax is an extra penalty in return for not creating a new character to lose all skills.

And in response to the others, once again.

Just because you don't like it, does not make it bad game design. My understanding is that Barotrauma was developed as a survival game, first and foremost. You had to survive the environment. The other players. The traitors. The monsters. Your own mistakes.

Everything else came after that.

[Buggy Boy]

Nguyên văn bởi LykosNychi:

Don't you keep talents and xp, but just lose skills? Reaper's Tax is an extra penalty in return for not creating a new character to lose all skills.

Reaper's Tax is a bit of a nonsense now anyway since the captain can gain a talent that nullifies it for everyone (cigars).

[LykosNychi]

Nguyên văn bởi Buggy Boy:

Nguyên văn bởi LykosNychi:

Don't you keep talents and xp, but just lose skills? Reaper's Tax is an extra penalty in return for not creating a new character to lose all skills.

Reaper's Tax is a bit of a nonsense now anyway since the captain can gain a talent that nullifies it for everyone (cigars).

I mean I think that's just.. progression?

[obama]

Nguyên văn bởi Rokvach:

It is intentional that skills reset once your character dies, even if you respawn with Reaper's tax. This was changed with the Among the Ancients update, the change was prompted because of the new talent system allows gaining skills too fast, that it was seen as necessary to just reset the skills rather than just lower them on death.

why isnt this optional

[Mountain King]

Nguyên văn bởi obama:

Nguyên văn bởi Rokvach:

It is intentional that skills reset once your character dies, even if you respawn with Reaper's tax. This was changed with the Among the Ancients update, the change was prompted because of the new talent system allows gaining skills too fast, that it was seen as necessary to just reset the skills rather than just lower them on death.

why isnt this optional

Everything is optional, the game has mods.

[obama]

♥♥♥♥♥♥ excuse
mods break every update and this needs to be a default feature

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Nguyên văn bởi Rokvach:

It is intentional that skills reset once your character dies, even if you respawn with Reaper's tax. This was changed with the Among the Ancients update, the change was prompted because of the new talent system allows gaining skills too fast, that it was seen as necessary to just reset the skills rather than just lower them on death.

At least explain it properly in-game. Literally everyone who starts the game thinks you won't loose skills if you wait until dock and freak out when they loose skillls.
Its counter-intuitive and unclear. Peace.