Losing skills upon death in campaign.

[Mogg]

Couldn't find a but forum so here is where I will post it.
We lose skills respawning after death in campaign mode. We use no mods.
It's as if our characters get fully reset and then get a reapers tax debuff on top of that. Curing reaper's tax doesn't restore the lost skills.

[Space Wolf Hudson]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Winter Wombat:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Rokvach:

It is intentional that skills reset once your character dies, even if you respawn with Reaper's tax. This was changed with the Among the Ancients update, the change was prompted because of the new talent system allows gaining skills too fast, that it was seen as necessary to just reset the skills rather than just lower them on death.

My group and I have been trying to figure out why this was happening for weeks. Finding out that it was a feature, not a bug has basically killed our interest in playing until/unless this changes.

Me and my friends like that. It makes death more punishing were before we thought death is not a big deal as long as one of us survives.

Also, those skills level up pretty fast and there are talents which increase the speed you gain them even more.

Oh and also you do keep unlocked talents even if you die.

[Buggy Boy]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Rokvach:

It is intentional that skills reset once your character dies, even if you respawn with Reaper's tax. This was changed with the Among the Ancients update, the change was prompted because of the new talent system allows gaining skills too fast, that it was seen as necessary to just reset the skills rather than just lower them on death.

I don't understand why reaper's tax is still a thing then, surely losing all of your skill gains is punishment enough? Also this implies that not dying means that the game could be considered too easy, or a player becomes massively overpowered, and while I get that makes them fear dying even more, you tend to get players who just won't leave the sub or take any risks which might be to the detriment of other players in the server. If that player did eventually die then they might be hugely demoralised, maybe to the point where they just quit.

I think having this semi-permadeath as an option would be a very good idea as the community is clearly split on the concept, perhaps offer an alternative whereby they don't lose all of their skills, maybe just half of what they gained, or perhaps they lose a couple of random talents from the bottom of the talent trees. Make it a punishment, but make it a clear choice and a known thing that will occur on death. Seems this one was missed by a lot of people, probably buried in a long list of changes in that update.

[Bago]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από The Flaming Pike:

There are many games that involve skill loss upon death. There are even games that literally end when you die and you have to completely start over. Barotrauma is one of those games that encourages the players to survive at all cost.

When I bought this game it had reapers tax and prevented skill loss. This suddenly changed. If I knew the devs were gonna be the "force our style type" and not get that there are other play styles that exist and don't add options to remove things people may not want I would not have bothered getting this game.

I am not saying an option that allows skills loss is bad, but an option to prevent skill loss is just as needed.

[Mogg]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Buggy Boy:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Rokvach:

It is intentional that skills reset once your character dies, even if you respawn with Reaper's tax. This was changed with the Among the Ancients update, the change was prompted because of the new talent system allows gaining skills too fast, that it was seen as necessary to just reset the skills rather than just lower them on death.

I don't understand why reaper's tax is still a thing then, surely losing all of your skill gains is punishment enough? Also this implies that not dying means that the game could be considered too easy, or a player becomes massively overpowered, and while I get that makes them fear dying even more, you tend to get players who just won't leave the sub or take any risks which might be to the detriment of other players in the server. If that player did eventually die then they might be hugely demoralised, maybe to the point where they just quit.

I think having this semi-permadeath as an option would be a very good idea as the community is clearly split on the concept, perhaps offer an alternative whereby they don't lose all of their skills, maybe just half of what they gained, or perhaps they lose a couple of random talents from the bottom of the talent trees. Make it a punishment, but make it a clear choice and a known thing that will occur on death. Seems this one was missed by a lot of people, probably buried in a long list of changes in that update.

There's the dying and losing all skills, but on top are penalized further by repaers tax, and not to forget to mention there is a respawn timer at which the entire crew could wipe so an entire reload or restart is needed (depends on game mode) and players don't respawn back on the sub but on a mini sub that isn't exactly right next to the main sub. How much more punishment is enough? Cool that some people want to play emo style, it can be fun, but some people don't consider it fun. While we are on the subject matter of fun, the idea that a game can't grant various modes of play for accessibilty to all those people that enjoy to play those ways is not a stupid idea, but one that is far more profitable and popular (providing the game is the type that many people like in the first place). There's a mode to switch off respawn. there's a mode to change your character during play, so why not just also include different options of punishment for players to play around with? This could also increase the type of game modes in way, if you get creative (like all a player death because of husk parasite suddenly plays their character with the goal to kill everyone else >: D ). Just pointing out Project Zomboid has the option to make all zombies runners which seriously amps up the difficulty to survive, but also has options to make things easier too.
I know I am replying to you, but this post is also in response to pretty much everyone else who has some kind of weird dislike for people being able to enjoy a game that has options for them. I mean mods exist too, should they be banned because they affect the way the game plays? It's the exact same principle, yet mods are generally not official.

I mean, the extra don't need to be added yesterday, but some day in a closer future it would be nice. For now I'll put this game on the back burner. I can't recommend it as is unless people are into such niche mechanics (which aren't many in my circle to some extent unfortunately).

[Саныч]

The main conclusion that the developer should draw from the different proposals of the players to change the game is simply to add different options to the host settings so that the players themselves choose what they need. And he is not tormented by doubts "how it will affect if we introduce it necessarily"

[The Flaming Pike]

So for those who wondered, Bago created a thread in Development Suggestions here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/602960/discussions/2/3192493998735961260/

[Buggy Boy]

I think the takeaway from this is that the game started off with death being handled one way and then changed it without offering players the option to keep the old way.

Respawning with reaper's tax (which is temporary) and a timer set by the host is significantly different to respawning with reaper's tax AND losing all skill gains. I'm not sure where this change was stated, if it was in the middle of a long list of 'fixes and updates' in patch notes then I think that's poor, it's a major change that many took to be a bug, it should have been featured and probably the community asked whether they wanted it as an option, that would have been better IMO. Maybe it will be an option for server settings in a future update.

[LykosNychi]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Buggy Boy:

I think the takeaway from this is that the game started off with death being handled one way and then changed it without offering players the option to keep the old way.

Respawning with reaper's tax (which is temporary) and a timer set by the host is significantly different to respawning with reaper's tax AND losing all skill gains. I'm not sure where this change was stated, if it was in the middle of a long list of 'fixes and updates' in patch notes then I think that's poor, it's a major change that many took to be a bug, it should have been featured and probably the community asked whether they wanted it as an option, that would have been better IMO. Maybe it will be an option for server settings in a future update.

Please explain what you mean?

Barotrauma has always wiped your character's skills on death. Always.
There may have been a short period wherein it didn't when stuff like Reaper's Tax was added,but that was surely in the minority of this game's lifespan, and likely either unintended, or an experimental change.

[Mogg]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από LykosNychi:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Buggy Boy:

I think the takeaway from this is that the game started off with death being handled one way and then changed it without offering players the option to keep the old way.

Respawning with reaper's tax (which is temporary) and a timer set by the host is significantly different to respawning with reaper's tax AND losing all skill gains. I'm not sure where this change was stated, if it was in the middle of a long list of 'fixes and updates' in patch notes then I think that's poor, it's a major change that many took to be a bug, it should have been featured and probably the community asked whether they wanted it as an option, that would have been better IMO. Maybe it will be an option for server settings in a future update.

Please explain what you mean?

Barotrauma has always wiped your character's skills on death. Always.
There may have been a short period wherein it didn't when stuff like Reaper's Tax was added,but that was surely in the minority of this game's lifespan, and likely either unintended, or an experimental change.

Regardless of "lifespan" of mechanics within a game, they may very well have started playing when this was a thing. Be mindful of context and not attempt to dismantle an argument with pointless fact.
At some point the game played differently, and this difference mattered regardless if it was a test, or whatever. It doesn't hurt to re-implement the old way as an option for those that enjoyed it that way. You still get to play your game the way you like, nobody is taking that away from you.

[LykosNychi]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mogg:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από LykosNychi:

Please explain what you mean?

Barotrauma has always wiped your character's skills on death. Always.
There may have been a short period wherein it didn't when stuff like Reaper's Tax was added,but that was surely in the minority of this game's lifespan, and likely either unintended, or an experimental change.

Regardless of "lifespan" of mechanics within a game, they may very well have started playing when this was a thing. Be mindful of context and not attempt to dismantle an argument with pointless fact.
At some point the game played differently, and this difference mattered regardless if it was a test, or whatever. It doesn't hurt to re-implement the old way as an option for those that enjoyed it that way. You still get to play your game the way you like, nobody is taking that away from you.

I'm not dismantling anything with "pointless fact".

They made a statement that simply wasn't true. I acknowledge that there was a period where this was possibly the case, but it was a very short period and does not represent the game as a whole, nor the stance that has been held on it.

I agree options are good, but that's not the crux of the discussion. They're acting as if it's a sudden change that changed how the game was always played. That's false, unequivocally.

EDIT:
Interestingly I've just gone back and begun reading patch notes. I see that in Among The Ancients the following patch note was added:
- Characters lose some skill points when respawning mid-round. The talent system makes it easier to gain skills and permanent improvements to the character, and this change is intended to balance that out.

I'm interpreting this as a change which caused characters to only lose SOME skills as opposed to all skills, but I could be wrong.

I've been playing this steam version since I believe 2020, and I distinctly recall that any time any of the group died in campaign, the character's stats were reset and had to be regrinded.

Granted I only played campaigns about 3 times since AtA update, but I recall losing skills and talents completely on death there as well.

[Buggy Boy]

I've clocked nearly 1,000 hours so far, I'd call that long enough to say I've been playing a while, long enough to qualify my comments.

[Mogg]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από LykosNychi:

I'm not dismantling anything with "pointless fact".
...
They're acting as if it's a sudden change that changed how the game was always played. That's false, unequivocally.

Ok. I get your point.
There is something you fail to understand, at least what I am to gather from your reply. I'll quote myself:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mogg:

...they may very well have started playing when this was a thing. Be mindful of context ...

Regardless how the game was before, none of that matters in the context of what they experienced when they began playing (at least roughly during that period).
Their sentiment isn't invalid just because these mechanics weren't a thing prior to their start of play.

If you go over the forums and this thread, some people have already spoken up thinking the skill loss was a bug. The mechanic was prominent enough to be noticed, as well as the issues (that weren't bugs as said by devs in this very forum) that arose when changes were made. Seems like there wasn't enough noticeable emphasis in the Change Log.
As far as someone joining late to the party, all they know is what the party was like at the time of arrival. It seems a little excessive to expect everyone to go through the entire history of a games development before playing it. What matters is the current state of it, and where it is going. Enough people have noticed an aspect they don't like, and there is no harm in mentioning this with hope the devs add some options to make the game enjoyable for more people. Ultimately it is up the devs to decide if they want to spend time and resources making a game for all to enjoy or just one that focuses on a very particular player base.

[LykosNychi]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mogg:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από LykosNychi:

I'm not dismantling anything with "pointless fact".
...
They're acting as if it's a sudden change that changed how the game was always played. That's false, unequivocally.

Ok. I get your point.
There is something you fail to understand, at least what I am to gather from your reply. I'll quote myself:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mogg:

...they may very well have started playing when this was a thing. Be mindful of context ...

Regardless how the game was before, none of that matters in the context of what they experienced when they began playing (at least roughly during that period).
Their sentiment isn't invalid just because these mechanics weren't a thing prior to their start of play.

If you go over the forums and this thread, some people have already spoken up thinking the skill loss was a bug. The mechanic was prominent enough to be noticed, as well as the issues (that weren't bugs as said by devs in this very forum) that arose when changes were made. Seems like there wasn't enough noticeable emphasis in the Change Log.
As far as someone joining late to the party, all they know is what the party was like at the time of arrival. It seems a little excessive to expect everyone to go through the entire history of a games development before playing it. What matters is the current state of it, and where it is going. Enough people have noticed an aspect they don't like, and there is no harm in mentioning this with hope the devs add some options to make the game enjoyable for more people. Ultimately it is up the devs to decide if they want to spend time and resources making a game for all to enjoy or just one that focuses on a very particular player base.

Once more I was not invalidating anything.

I was simply stating that I don't beleive it "suddenly changed" from a longstanding thing. You seem to think I'm just trying to dump their thoughts and arguments into the sewers over a minor technicality. Rather i'm trying to figure out where the disconnect is from, because they seem certain that the game always operated one way and then suddenly changed.

[Mogg]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από LykosNychi:

Once more I was not invalidating anything.

I was simply stating that I don't beleive it "suddenly changed" from a longstanding thing. You seem to think I'm just trying to dump their thoughts and arguments into the sewers over a minor technicality. Rather i'm trying to figure out where the disconnect is from, because they seem certain that the game always operated one way and then suddenly changed.

I apologise for my misunderstanding.

[The Flaming Pike]

It seems clear the game has come to the point where there are different "schools of thoughts" between various Barotrauma players. Older players such as myself remember the times when dying in a multiplayer campaign meant you had to wait a long time - until the mission's end to be precise. We really, really didn't want to die back then!

I'm assuming some who are posting here weren't there back then. There's nothing wrong about that. Even if they weren't playing the game a couple of years back, it doesn't necessarily means newer players have a worthless opinion. They offer an "outsider's view" of the game which I think is a very good thing.

I understand veteran players can be a bit defensive sometimes concerning patch changes and they can be equally defensive with new players offering different visions of the game. I believe it's proof the game is very special for a lot of people and has a very dedicated, hardcore fanbase, which is awesome. You don't get those type of debates with any game. Only those with a little something unique - dare I say a "soul" - have that.

However I think that if you are giving your opinion on a crucial feature such as skill points, you need to play the game extensively ( perhaps up to 50-70 hours game time, not counting sub creation ) to figure out whether or not modifying that feature is worth it compared to status quo.

I'm in favor of status quo as stated in a previous post, but I think the option of removing skill loss in the campaign's settings is a viable option, eventually. However I think it should count as a "cheat" just like when you use in-game commands and thus make the session ineligible for achievements. My opinion is that there's still a line to be drawn between what a player wants in a game and the actual game. Then again, I feel obliged to point out that I'm a moderator, not a developer, so it's not up to me to decide.