Vsync On Vs Fast Sync - on a 4K HDR 60Hz TV! Help

[Slayer Seraph]

Hey guys, got a kinda general question:
I feel like I've been using my TV settings wrong.
I have 2 Displays - which I play on either. A Gsync 144hz 1440p Monitor Rog Swift 278Q and a Samsung 4K HDR TV.
I prefer playing on my big 4K HDR TV , with Game mode - whenever I can.
I've already maxed 100% DMC5 but I'm looking to get back to it.
Now the thing is, I absolutely can't stand tearing, and I think no one should ever tolerate tearing - as it's the most harmful visual downgrade possible to an image - you get fragments of torn frames - you might as well throw away those Ultra settings and 4K resolution...

Now here's the thing, I don't like Input Lag either.
I remember trying Adaptive Vsync in the past and not liking it (can't remember why).

I recently discovered the existence of Fast Sync.
Is it any good on fast response games like DMC5? What's the pros and cons?
How exactly do you activate - and make sure Fast Sync actually works in game?

[Slayer Seraph]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Dote up a Cat 2: Outback Edition:

Oh this is completely off topic, but would you happen to know why I can't enable HDR with DMC5 for some reason? HDR works fine in other games, but the option is completely unavailable in this game, which is weird because it used to work fine before (I have no idea if some sort of windows update or a patch for the game broke it). Only thing I haven't tried is disconnecting my 1440p non HDR monitor but I shouldn't have to do that just to enable HDR.

Have you tried switching between Borderless/Window to Fullscreen? Make sure you are in Fullscreen for HDR to work.
Also even if it's on and you want the best results you can use the quick fix I demonstrate here:
https://youtu.be/_tk9xnY6YBI

Also make sure your TV "UHD color" or equivalent setting is turned on in your TV settings.

[Slayer Seraph]

So I don't understand the whole use FPS limiter with Fast Sync. Aren't extra frames dropped anyway ?
How much should I limit my FPS?
Doesn't Fast Sync enforce a limit by itself to your display refresh rate?
I have RTSS Ruth my MSI I can use that to limit FPS. I usually rather not add any limitations. However this game has several stability issues with 3rd party apps and overallys - causing extra crashes. Which is why I had to close MSI every time before playing.
(I rather not install any more 3rd party apps or mods).

So what's actually better? Vsync or Fast Sync? (It seems to be this game have Triple Buffering Vsync because FPS doesn't drop to 30 if you go below 60).

How much delay does Vsync adds there anyway - does it really matter ?

(I simply can't stand tearing and no one should - it's highly noticable by everyone, and super distracted, downright harming the picture quality massively).

Diposting pertama kali oleh Dote up a Cat 2: Outback Edition:

I've experimented with fast sync a lot and while the input lag is great compared to v-sync (it adds only about 9ms of input lag) it's kinda crap for frame pacing. You need pretty extreme frame rates for it to be worth it, for perfect smooth frame pacing you'd need something insane like 180fps, which is probably out of reach on a modern 4k display. Whereas v-sync adds quite a lot of input lag it's much much better for smoothness and frame pacing. What you're after is kind of unachievable without freesync or gsync, you'll just have to put up with bad frame pacing or extra input lag.

I wish Nvida added FULL SUPPORT for Free Sync VRR displays over HDMI - instead we get fake support only over DP, which are not only shorter but no TV uses them. My next TV which I'm already ordering is going to have VRR, but I can't make use of it unless Nvidia finally decides to support VRR over HDMI like AMD ! Just great...
Anyone knows if they plan to release full support for HDMI VRR soon?
Thanks

[Kaldaien]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Dote up a Cat 2: Outback Edition:

Oh this is completely off topic, but would you happen to know why I can't enable HDR with DMC5 for some reason? HDR works fine in other games, but the option is completely unavailable in this game, which is weird because it used to work fine before (I have no idea if some sort of windows update or a patch for the game broke it). Only thing I haven't tried is disconnecting my 1440p non HDR monitor but I shouldn't have to do that just to enable HDR.

NVIDIA or AMD?

The game uses NvAPI and is known to turn HDR off for the Windows desktop when it exits. It also doesn't store your resolution correctly, it stores the mode # instead of Width<x>Height. If HDR is turned on/off and you re-run the game, the number of resolution modes changes and the value in the config file is invalid.

I wrote a very lengthy bug report about this several months ago, but it'll probably never be fixed. Your best bet is to ensure your HDR screen is using at least 10-bpc and (I assume it's an HDTV?) YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:2:0. More than likely if it's a TV, it's only going to work correctly @ YCbCr 4:2:2, 12-bit color (this is Dolby Vision's standard) or YCbCr 4:2:0, 10-bit color (HDR10).

Here are the settings necessary to enable HDR on my LG 4K OLED:

https://imgur.com/a/piAdqhH

Again, however, note that when you change the desktop HDR setting it changes the number of modes that DirectX lists and the game's resolution is going to be invalid and you're going to want to manually delete the game's graphics config file.

Last, do not Alt-Tab once you get this game into HDR mode. It will not re-engage HDR when restoring the game. This was also in the bug report that made its way nowhere

[Kaldaien]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

So I don't understand the whole use FPS limiter with Fast Sync. Aren't extra frames dropped anyway ?

No, the default behavior when triple-buffering is to display each drawn frame for 1 full monitor refresh and to always display them in the order they were drawn. This is referred to as sequential buffer flipping, and it means that each extra buffer adds a minimum of 1 monitor refresh to latency.

FastSync changes the equation so that finished frames can be displayed out-of-order or (this is key) never displayed at all. It looks at all the completed frames when the monitor refreshes and grabs the newest complete frame and skips everything else.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

So what's actually better? Vsync or Fast Sync? (It seems to be this game have Triple Buffering Vsync because FPS doesn't drop to 30 if you go below 60).

FastSync is VSync, just with the option to drop old frames.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

How much delay does Vsync adds there anyway - does it really matter ?

Refer to the first paragraph ;)

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

I wish Nvida added FULL SUPPORT for Free Sync VRR displays over HDMI - instead we get fake support only over DP, which are not only shorter but no TV uses them.

This is an HDMI 2.1 feature, you will have to wait until NV ships an HDMI 2.1 GPU

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

My next TV which I'm already ordering is going to have VRR, but I can't make use of it unless Nvidia finally decides to support VRR over HDMI like AMD ! Just great...
Anyone knows if they plan to release full support for HDMI VRR soon?

It works fine for my LG OLED, but I've opted not to use it and instead to go with a fixed-refresh and use Black Frame Insertion for CRT quality motion.

[KingyWingy]

Discarding older frames will not make the game look worse. Fast V-sync is intened to be used with an uncapped and high frame rate. As has been stated the closer the frame rate is to the refresh rate the worse the micro stutter is from Fast V-sync.

If you want V-sync with the lowest input lag your best bet is Fast V-sync. If you can't stand the micro stutter because your frame rate is too low use traditional triple buffered V-sync.

Do not combine Fast V-sync with G-sync. G-sync is meant to be paired with double buffered V-sync if anything. When using G-sync cap your frame rate so that it does not exceed the refresh rate for best tear free results.

Read this: https://www.blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101-input-lag-tests-and-settings/

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

So what's actually better? Vsync or Fast Sync? (It seems to be this game have Triple Buffering Vsync because FPS doesn't drop to 30 if you go below 60).

That would be double buffered V-sync. A third frame buffer is added to prevent those performance stalls, that is drops from 60 to 30 etc.

[Slayer Seraph]

VRR over HDMI is not an HDMI 2.1 feature. (The HDMI 2.1 feature you are talking about is 4K@120Hz on TVs. Which is not offered yet on any device).

Note that AMD already have full support for Free Sync (and VRR TVS) over HDMI - without HDMI 2.1.
NVIDIA only does that on DP - and they CAN make it happen on HDMI - they just don't...
And there's no knowing WHEN it will be available over HDMI on Nvidia as well, if ever.

They use to not support VRR AT ALL - not even on Displayport - until quite recently. Then they added the support via patch. So it could be a matter of time.
Sucks either way.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kaldaien:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

I wish Nvida added FULL SUPPORT for Free Sync VRR displays over HDMI - instead we get fake support only over DP, which are not only shorter but no TV uses them.

This is an HDMI 2.1 feature, you will have to wait until NV ships an HDMI 2.1 GPU

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

My next TV which I'm already ordering is going to have VRR, but I can't make use of it unless Nvidia finally decides to support VRR over HDMI like AMD ! Just great...
Anyone knows if they plan to release full support for HDMI VRR soon?

It works fine for my LG OLED, but I've opted not to use it and instead to go with a fixed-refresh and use Black Frame Insertion for CRT quality motion.

So how did you got VRR to work with a TV like LG OLED if it's not supported yet?
It shouldn't have Display-Port. So I'm assuming you have an AMD GPU in your PC?

Diposting pertama kali oleh KingyWingy:

Discarding older frames will not make the game look worse. Fast V-sync is intened to be used with an uncapped and high frame rate. As has been stated the closer the frame rate is to the refresh rate the worse the micro stutter is from Fast V-sync.

If you want V-sync with the lowest input lag your best bet is Fast V-sync. If you can't stand the micro stutter because your frame rate is too low use traditional triple buffered V-sync.

Do not combine Fast V-sync with G-sync. G-sync is meant to be paired with double buffered V-sync if anything. When using G-sync cap your frame rate so that it does not exceed the refresh rate for best tear free results.

Read this: https://www.blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101-input-lag-tests-and-settings/

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

So what's actually better? Vsync or Fast Sync? (It seems to be this game have Triple Buffering Vsync because FPS doesn't drop to 30 if you go below 60).

That would be double buffered V-sync. A third frame buffer is added to prevent those performance stalls, that is drops from 60 to 30 etc.

I was saying DMC5 must be using Triple Buffering - since I can have fps below 60 without dropping to 30. Although I can't remember the last game I played with Vsync that made my FPS drop straight from 60 to 30 when fluctuating below 60. So does that mean modern games have Triple Buffering "always-on" hidden ?

Yeah when I played other games on my Gsync 144hz monitor I would just play with normal Gsync and Vsync on by default. If I ever crossed 144hz then Vsync kicks in - it's not a huge deal as it doesn't happen often in many games. (I also dislike messing with these tweaks and limiting my screen fps).

But I read lately that the best method is to:
Have Gsync activated in NVCP. Have Vsync enabled in NVCP.
Disable Vsync in the in-game settings(which isn't really necessary usually but advised). Use RivaTuner to cap framerate to 1-3 below your refresh rate. I've only done so with 1 game.
However, what I don't know:
Should I cap my FPS in the Global settings of RTSS or Per-Game?
What happens if I disabled MSI Afterburner+RTSS before playing the game? I always disable them before games like DMC5 - because it makes the game more prone to crashes - especially during loading (confirmed).

[KingyWingy]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

I was saying DMC5 must be using Triple Buffering - since I can have fps below 60 without dropping to 30. Although I can't remember the last game I played with Vsync that made my FPS drop straight from 60 to 30 when fluctuating below 60. So does that mean modern games have Triple Buffering "always-on" hidden ?

Yeah when I played other games on my Gsync 144hz monitor I would just play with normal Gsync and Vsync on by default. If I ever crossed 144hz then Vsync kicks in - it's not a huge deal as it doesn't happen often in many games. (I also dislike messing with these tweaks and limiting my screen fps).

But I read lately that the best method is to:
Have Gsync activated in NVCP. Have Vsync enabled in NVCP.
Disable Vsync in the in-game settings(which isn't really necessary usually but advised). Use RivaTuner to cap framerate to 1-3 below your refresh rate. I've only done so with 1 game.
However, what I don't know:
Should I cap my FPS in the Global settings of RTSS or Per-Game?
What happens if I disabled MSI Afterburner+RTSS before playing the game? I always disable them before games like DMC5 - because it makes the game more prone to crashes - especially during loading (confirmed).

Oops, I read that as does not doesn't.

Yes most games use 3 frame buffers when you turn on their V-sync function even though they don't tell you they use 3 frame buffers. This became the case years ago when VRAM became much less scarce.

If you are always using G-sync then it would make sense to apply the frame rate cap globally but I always do everything on a per game basis just in case.

RTSS is what has the frame rate capper and thus needs to be running. MSI Afterburner you can close and is probably what causes the crashing. But I have not tried this myself.

[Slayer Seraph]

Diposting pertama kali oleh KingyWingy:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

I was saying DMC5 must be using Triple Buffering - since I can have fps below 60 without dropping to 30. Although I can't remember the last game I played with Vsync that made my FPS drop straight from 60 to 30 when fluctuating below 60. So does that mean modern games have Triple Buffering "always-on" hidden ?

Yeah when I played other games on my Gsync 144hz monitor I would just play with normal Gsync and Vsync on by default. If I ever crossed 144hz then Vsync kicks in - it's not a huge deal as it doesn't happen often in many games. (I also dislike messing with these tweaks and limiting my screen fps).

But I read lately that the best method is to:
Have Gsync activated in NVCP. Have Vsync enabled in NVCP.
Disable Vsync in the in-game settings(which isn't really necessary usually but advised). Use RivaTuner to cap framerate to 1-3 below your refresh rate. I've only done so with 1 game.
However, what I don't know:
Should I cap my FPS in the Global settings of RTSS or Per-Game?
What happens if I disabled MSI Afterburner+RTSS before playing the game? I always disable them before games like DMC5 - because it makes the game more prone to crashes - especially during loading (confirmed).

Oops, I read that as does not doesn't.

Yes most games use 3 frame buffers when you turn on their V-sync function even though they don't tell you they use 3 frame buffers. This became the case years ago when VRAM became much less scarce.

If you are always using G-sync then it would make sense to apply the frame rate cap globally but I always do everything on a per game basis just in case.

RTSS is what has the frame rate capper and thus needs to be running. MSI Afterburner you can close and is probably what causes the crashing. But I have not tried this myself.

But when I close MSI AB it closes RTSS automatically together.
I used to have them on together- for Overclock and monitoring (OSD of GPU/CPU temps, speeds, clocks, usage etc). But then someone told me you can close MSI after OC applied - and it will keep the GPU OC working. Can't really confirm it though ...
I don't know how to close one without the other.
I play less often on Gsync recently - because I prefer my 4K home theater setup and big screen.

[KingyWingy]

Don't MSI Afterburner and RTSS have separate tray icons? Maybe you have to start RTSS by it's self. RTSS can be downloaded separately from MSI Afterburner but as far as I know that download is identical to the RTSS bundled with MSI Afterburner.

[Kaldaien]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ransom Seraph:

VRR over HDMI is not an HDMI 2.1 feature. (The HDMI 2.1 feature you are talking about is 4K@120Hz on TVs. Which is not offered yet on any device).

Note that AMD already have full support for Free Sync (and VRR TVS) over HDMI - without HDMI 2.1.
NVIDIA only does that on DP - and they CAN make it happen on HDMI - they just don't...
And there's no knowing WHEN it will be available over HDMI on Nvidia as well, if ever.

They use to not support VRR AT ALL - not even on Displayport - until quite recently. Then they added the support via patch. So it could be a matter of time.
Sucks either way.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kaldaien:

This is an HDMI 2.1 feature, you will have to wait until NV ships an HDMI 2.1 GPU

It works fine for my LG OLED, but I've opted not to use it and instead to go with a fixed-refresh and use Black Frame Insertion for CRT quality motion.

So how did you got VRR to work with a TV like LG OLED if it's not supported yet?
It shouldn't have Display-Port. So I'm assuming you have an AMD GPU in your PC?

The same way you get any optional feature. The only thing HDMI 2.1 does here is mandate support for Variable Refresh. 4:2:0 chroma subsampling isn't mandated (or even defined) by HDMI 1.4, but NVIDIA still implements it in order to do 4K / 60 Hz on HDMI 1.4 GPUs.

Until it becomes a required feature you shouldn't expect support for it; you can be happily surprised when something that didn't exist when the standard your device conforms to was published is supported, but don't go demanding the impossible.

NVIDIA already supports variable refresh over HDMI even though they're not required to. AMD already had their own standard prior to HDMI 2.0 being ratified which is why they got a headstart here.

[Slayer Seraph]

Can you try to be more clear and make some sense? Frankly every paragraph seem to contradict the other
1st paragraph you claim you made it work but don't describe how and with what hardware exactly. Do elaborate how Vrr/Freesync work eith your LG, please.

2nd paragraph you say it's impossible and can't work on Nvidia.

3rd paragraph you claim it already works with Nvidia - that Nvidiaalready support HDMI over VRR.

But I can link you many sources and evidence that Nvidia DOESN'T support VRR/Free Sync over HDMI.
It's a known fact.
So show proof it's possible, and do tell how I can make it work.

Right now you are kind being partly informative and partly confusing and vague.

After researching this extremely thoroughly:
AMD is the only ones having full support for Free Sync on HDMI atm.
Also Xbox One X has support and can output VRR.

[Kaldaien]

Go into the NVIDIA Control Panel and navigate to the G-Sync tab, turn G-Sync on for your TV assuming it supports the VESA standard for variable refresh and it just works. The signal goes from fixed- to variable-refresh and I can no longer use several important image processing modes on my TV until I turn G-Sync back off. The NVCPL needs to be updated because it refers to any non-fixed refresh rate mode as G-Sync.

I don't particularly care about variable refresh rate, so I've opted to turn this feature back off and use Black Frame Insertion instead. That's completely display side and much more of a motion performance improvement than G-Sync.

The only benefit Variable Refresh brings is lower input latency, but at the expense of motion clarity and that's not a trade I'm willing to make.



As far as your complaint that only AMD supports FreeSync over HDMI, this is the reason I brought up HDMI 2.1. VESA is responsible for DisplayPort and FreeSync is AMD's implementation of the VESA Adaptive-Sync std. You can absolutely ham fist Adaptive Sync into an HDMI 2.0 signal provided the display knows how to interpret the non-standard modification.

That's the same way that NVIDIA sells HDMI 1.4 GPUs spitting out 4:2:0 chroma, when that format was not defined until HDMI 2.0 -- so long as the display supports HDMI 2.0 it knows how to interpret the format and happily decodes it.

[Na]

Diposting pertama kali oleh KingyWingy:

Discarding older frames will not make the game look worse.

Dropped frames makes the motion of a game look worse.

[Kaldaien]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Sodium:

Diposting pertama kali oleh KingyWingy:

Discarding older frames will not make the game look worse.

Dropped frames makes the motion of a game look worse.

We need to better define the term "dropped" here, I think.

If your monitor's refresh rate is 144 Hz and you're drawing at 288 FPS, every other frame has to be dropped. This is not the same as, for example, drawing at 72 FPS and the monitor displaying each of those frames for 2 refreshes. However, I am quite certain the second scenario is what most people think of when the term "dropped" is introduced.

If you're drawing more frames than your display can handle and causing some of them to be dropped, the only effect you will observe is that the game is responding to your input faster because it's processing input events during dropped frames. You can't see them, but they're doing stuff.

[KingyWingy]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Sodium:

Diposting pertama kali oleh KingyWingy:

Discarding older frames will not make the game look worse.

Dropped frames makes the motion of a game look worse.

Not necessarily. The issue is frame pacing not whether or not frames are discarded. This is why when using Fast V-sync the frame rate should be high, around double the refresh rate or more.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kaldaien:

If your monitor's refresh rate is 144 Hz and you're drawing at 288 FPS, every other frame has to be dropped. This is not the same as, for example, drawing at 72 FPS and the monitor displaying each of those frames for 2 refreshes. However, I am quite certain the second scenario is what most people think of when the term "dropped" is introduced.

To clarify, this is when using Fast V-sync.