Am i the only one who think FFX better than FFXII ?

[v00d00m4n]

Yeah i know X was linear and way too cinematic... XII is sorta open world... XII story seems to be more classic FF story (FF 1-6 and 9 style), while X had some mix of FF7 and 8 style... some may say that X in not RPG but an interactive movie or something like that... some may say that X is shorter... but lets concentrate of how both games feel in general.

Ill explain why i think and feel that X was better game in general but short version - it was just more immersive, it felt consisntent like a one solid adventure game with non stop story. It was more cinematic, but not PRESS X TO WIN cinematic kind of way (i mean Telltale's games and other modern interacive movies that pretends to be games) as it still was RPG, but not overbloated, not overcomplicated and not so distracting like FF12.
FF10 was focused on its story, while FF12 totally has not focus on story at very begining of game, i has too much of RPG GAME SYSTEMs that overcomplicate game, forcing you to spend too much time reading manuals, tutorials and trying to guess weird game design logic, and then a lot of time on grinding.

i played like 10 hours of FF12 since i got it, and has nothing interesting in story happened yet and most of time i spend just running from one point of map (where you have nothing interesting to do or see) to another, and then grinding in ths semi open WIDE CORRIDORS world, and im already borred to death, im tired to read tutorials explaining new complicated mechanics one after another, im tired of this weird semi-real time combat system that feels broken because it lacking 2 vital features: 1) queue of commands 2) automatic movement performance of queued action 3) automatic behavior

so instead of doing it like in Star Wars KOTOR (perfect example of mix of real time and turn based combat in RPG), or like in old FFs, or like in Witcher 3 or even fallout or TALES OF series or whatever RPG you have in a your head, you do it wost way possible.

Lack of queue require you spend time to select actio on pause n for each enemy , and lack of autoperformance makes you character stay and do nothing and get hit... until you manually move to enemy and then you realise that your character getting hit and does nothing.... and then it atacks, and does nothing again, and then you nottic a bar that was not even explained in tutorial, and then you keep wondering why enemies atack you more often then you atack them. Unortunatuly there is no button to perform atack when you want it, you cant block at will as well, its absolutely rand, and if you will press atack and will not move, and will not focuse on enemy, when it wil aproach you you character will do nothing, and sometimes will randomly block. And there is no dodging and even you will run circles around enemy waiting for your next atack you may get hit even if you look at enemy's back.

This combat system is so frustrating, it does not work as real time combat and it does not work as turn based combat.

Also this zodiac and licence board ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t system just overcomplicates game and limits it features and force you to grind like if you play some WOW or FF XI Online, but at least in WOW you have working real time combat system,in FF12 you only have boring grind.

Old good turn based FF combat was more satisfiying and stategic. Also games like Tales of has much better combat system that mixes real time and turn based JRPG systems very well, and it has automation, self defence and atack strategies, order of actions and evern ability to let game do combat for you (but game does that bad soe you have to control that anyway). FF12 has probably worst combat system in entire series, even god awful FF13 was not that bad during combats.

Actually once i mentioned FF11 online, i realised that FF12 has more in common with this online grind fest than with any other previous FF game, entire structure of world and boring "go there grind this" missions reminds FF online, and even lack of strong focus on story development reminds online grind focused RPG.

Did i mention that i hate online RPGs because i dont find any fun in endless boring grind without immersive gameplay and story? Well, FF12 gives me same feel.

Also, did i mention i hate lack of realism and hate when games screams in your face "I AM GAME, PRESS THIS AND THAT, FOLLOW ARROW, INTERACT WITH HUGE SHINY OBJECT, AND TRY TO SEE GAME WORLD BEHIND CLUTTERING UI SCATTERED AROUND WHOLE SCREEN, AND PRETEND LIKE THESE CHARACTERS WHO STAY HERE AND DO NOTHING, ARE ALIVE, AND PRETENT LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE NOT SEE IN GAME JUST HAPPENED, LIKE WHEN YOU PICKED UP THAT LOOK WITHOUT EVEN BENT OVER ANIMATION AND ANY MOVEMENT OF HAND"?

Well, while ALL FF games are japanesse, up until FFX they was their own thing, where lack of realism was sort of tradition and features of JRPG genre. But FF12 tries to be more like CRPGs, more open and more like real world, and this there it totally falls flat comparing to CRPGs by europeans and americans. Thing is, while japanesse game tries to step into european game genre shoes, it still continues to be japanesse game with all that nonsense, lack of any imiation of real world actions. And this is where JRPGS starts to feel dated. stagnated, liveless. empty and boring. I mean just compare gamplay of FF12 to Gothic 1 or 2, or to gameplay of TES 3-5, Fallout 3-4 or Witcher 1 or 3 or even Fable 1-3 - these games feels like real living worlds, where you can do a lot of things not just do errand boy jobs and grinding animals and bandits, NPCs there has their lives, they work, they eat, they sleep, they can die, they have their activities, and you have yours (especially with mods that makes eating and sleeping and drinking necessary), there is a day nigh cycle, some of named games has weather cycles, some has story of entire life where your character grows up as well as other NPC (shame that trees still dont grow, am i right Peter?), get you body covered with scars withn you get hit and so on, and it all feesl immersive and realistic and it makes all non story focused gameplay interesting, because you are not just grinding, but you are living life of character, you are uploading your mind into his body and forgetting about real world when you play. This is what immersion is!

FF12 lacking this immersion and it has typical japanesse arcadish, consolish, clunky and mediocre game design and when game is not focus on emotional story with interesting characters and epic plots with unforseen (for the 1st 10 times, not in 12, lol) twist, it just does not feel good. And FF12 is that kind of japanesse game.

There are for example clunky japenesse games like Deadly Premonition, but despite flawed execution they sort of try to stay focused on story and open world part is actually filled wiiht immersive real life activies (like you have to shave, eat and drink coffee every morning and go sleep every night, or you may fall asleep during mission and find yourself in a bad situation) so this compensates whic japanesse clunkiness and mediocre feel and makes game interesting outside of story, and when story kicks in it getting even more interesting.

FFX also has some of this japanesse mediocrity and clunkiness, but its focused on story and does not try to be open world too much, yet it open enough to feel some freedom, also FFX feels less like RPG and more like Point and Click adventure game (actually FF7 and 8 felt same way outside of global world map), and with well structured story pacing it does not get boring, and changes locations and situations faster than they can bore you, and when it gets to combat and its still and good final fantasy JRPG which is dated by pays tribute to genre traditions without trying to break what works well for more than dacade. Also when it comes to skill managment and some mini games like that fooball, this is where FFX really gets annoying, but gladly FFX knows that this is not best parts of it, so it does not bother you often with skill managment screens, inventory and other crap.... actually i played like half of game without even opening anything of it, until monsters became way to powerfull so i had to spend some time to manage things for more effective battle outcome, but then i forgot about managment for many more hours, until situation repeated and i had to readjust my items and skill, with FF12 you spend like half of game grindinding and other half managing invetories, skills and other crap...

and you know, RPGs are not about skill sets, inventory, xp grind, levels ups, and all that orthodoxy left overs of board and card based non vide games rpgs, RPGS is about playin a role, this is why its called ROLE PLAYING game... and you know, role playing requires a screen play and stage to act as character, so RPGS are more cinematic an story focused by design. All that D&D and JRPG rule set was just invented to add some random factors for replayability, but main focus is actually on playing a role of character and makine a story.

And FFX is more RPG than FFXII i feel like im playing role of characted in his epic adventure that has a lot of interesting events and situations i have to deal with. I feel like i am a character who i play. With FFXll i feel like not even character, but a game plays me, and forces me to play its fancy overcomplicated unrealistic gameplay systems rather than playin a role in a story.

Also while world is more open in FF12, i kind feel more freedom playing FFX than FFXII, because i dont have to choose profession that limits my skills and set of weapons and magic i can use without any chance to change them. IN FF12 i feel locked out of many game features and play stiles and feel like im forced to play intended limited play style. While in FFX i feel like im making character whatever i want him to be, and while other characters has their profession predefined, they are balanced enough and i can swap them any time and they feel like expansion of my character, expansion that i swap to change play style.

Somehow it does not feel the same with FF12 because o different and quite ♥♥♥♥♥♥ combat system and overcomplicated skill system that limits game way too much and artificially makes it longer and forces you to grind a lot ot progress.

I have a lot of good memories about X from PS2, and when i replayed PC remasters i really enjoyed it (not the X-2 because it really ruined everything and turned X into grind fest with all the bad stuff pumped above safe limits and good stuff reduced to almost nothing).

I dont remember even if played FF12, i remember i saw it, but not completely, i think i skipped it because it was release at age of Xbox 360 release and i already sold my PS2 back than, i think i tried it at my friends home but dont remember that well, the only thing i remember for sure is that graphics was ugly as hell when it was release buti wanted to play it for story.

Story may look promising, game setting is interesting, but with gameplay like that i dont feel like i want to turture myself just to see the story. In addition to that this remaster looks ugly and way worse than FFX remaster... so even graphics of FFX looks better now and looked better back than. Music of FFX also feels better and more like classic FF.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ i just realised one important thing about music FF12 does not have while FF10 had it... its victory fanfares after combat! And every location of FFX had different music. And instead FF12 has same music that plays in loop in one huge area and it gets borring and even annoying after a while. And i did not check credits, but it does not feel like its UEMATSU music, it has some resemblance, few tracks feels like they was written by UEMATSU but most feels like other composers and more generic and not memorable as FF7, 8, 9 and 10 music was, i dont remember which was the Final FF for Uematsu, but im pretty sure his involvment in FFXII was not as deep as in previous game, probably he was too busy with other projects and lost his faith and interest in Square Enix and FF.

Well, there are more things i can say, but in summary X was just more solid game strongly focused on its story that tried to be innovative at story telling but was loayal to its tradition where it matters - in combat and exploration. It was a little dumbed down comparing to previous FFs but it was for better as it removed unnecessary overcomplications that felt dated and focused more on cinematic expirience and adventure gameplay that felt realistic, minimalistic and immersive. Some people criticized it for linearity and minimalism of gameplay... plus as one of 1st PS2 games it was one of the most beatifull games of its time, and it still one of the best looking games from entrire PS2 lineup. Remaster of X on PC looked surprising eye candy and game aged well.

So in FF12 Square did everything opposite, and added some of MMORPG like elements, and game lost its focus on story, and gameplay innovation was just bad where it mattered the most - in combat, and rest of gameplay was dated and i dont know about story as gameplay bored me before i can get deep into story and i lost interest and forgot about FF. Also it was one of the last PS2 games, and it was one of the ugliest games of PS, due of WIDER world and not so wide optimization skills game had ugly POP INs, blury as♥♥♥♥♥♥textures, low poly models and♥♥♥♥♥♥load of loading screens, different between CGI and gameplay was way too noticable, somehow FF7-10 all felt more detailed with their static prerendered (pre X) and real-time 3d backgrounds with static camera positions, than FF12. FF12 still look ugly even at this lazy remaster, and it did not age well.

And i have a feeling that story of 12 may end up worse than 13.... because 12 managed to have worst combat system i ever saw in FF games, even 13 was better when it was in combat mode.

[Marmo]

China want the wall back

[shoki]

Just read the title, but for me everything except 10-2 was better than 12. Nevertheless is 12 still a good game.

[RottenApache]

Yes.

[Hebi]

Honestly i think almost every1 thinks that 10 is better than 12 lol

[☣ Tiradox ☣]

Originally posted by Easy Killer:

China want the wall back

I burst out laughing when I read this

[v00d00m4n]

Originally posted by Easy Killer:

China want the wall back

I built this wall, but you and mexicans are going to pay for it.

Now can we stop this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ circus and start talking about subject ot this thread, or you that re-tarded you cant process this tiny amount i text i wrote and your brain just crashed to desktop and bsoded?

[TheQuestion]

Not according to humanity but maybe you are venting more then actually thinking that 12 is considered to be better then 10 by the majority of whatever is the fanbase.

I have not played 12 yet so I can't make a personal judgment about which one is the best.

[Exphen]

didn't read and won't OmegaLUL

[Hinnyuu]

They're quite different games, honestly. X is very FF-like. Linear, character-driven, focused on narrative above all else. XII is more of a general RPG, fairly open and non-linear, with a focus on mechanics. Both paradigms have upsides and downsides. Some people say X has more "heart", while XII is clearly the better gameplay experience. Others say X's combat is predictable and dull, while XII has a somewhat bland assembly cast and shaky story.

Personally, I think it's good that this was something new. People cry too much for more of the same thing imo, and it's not good for the genre. Any genre.

That being said in hindsight they did take it in a terrible direction as basically every main line FF after XII was hot garbage :P But oh well.

[Hatman]

Frankly i think 10 is the 2nd worst FF of all time, right after XIII. Only saved by a few good characters. 12 ranks much higher for me.

[v00d00m4n]

Originally posted by Hatman:

Frankly i think 10 is the 2nd worst FF of all time, right after XIII. Only saved by a few good characters. 12 ranks much higher for me.

Can you give detailed explaination of why you think so?

[Kuehnau]

Originally posted by Voodooman:

Yeah i know X was linear and way too cinematic... XII is sorta open world... XII story seems to be more classic FF story (FF 1-6 and 9 style), while X had some mix of FF7 and 8 style... some may say that X in not RPG but an interactive movie or something like that... some may say that X is shorter... but lets concentrate of how both games feel in general.

Ill explain why i think and feel that X was better game in general but short version - it was just more immersive, it felt consisntent like a one solid adventure game with non stop story. It was more cinematic, but not PRESS X TO WIN cinematic kind of way (i mean Telltale's games and other modern interacive movies that pretends to be games) as it still was RPG, but not overbloated, not overcomplicated and not so distracting like FF12.
FF10 was focused on its story, while FF12 totally has not focus on story at very begining of game, i has too much of RPG GAME SYSTEMs that overcomplicate game, forcing you to spend too much time reading manuals, tutorials and trying to guess weird game design logic, and then a lot of time on grinding.

i played like 10 hours of FF12 since i got it, and has nothing interesting in story happened yet and most of time i spend just running from one point of map (where you have nothing interesting to do or see) to another, and then grinding in ths semi open WIDE CORRIDORS world, and im already borred to death, im tired to read tutorials explaining new complicated mechanics one after another, im tired of this weird semi-real time combat system that feels broken because it lacking 2 vital features: 1) queue of commands 2) automatic movement performance of queued action 3) automatic behavior

so instead of doing it like in Star Wars KOTOR (perfect example of mix of real time and turn based combat in RPG), or like in old FFs, or like in Witcher 3 or even fallout or TALES OF series or whatever RPG you have in a your head, you do it wost way possible.

Lack of queue require you spend time to select actio on pause n for each enemy , and lack of autoperformance makes you character stay and do nothing and get hit... until you manually move to enemy and then you realise that your character getting hit and does nothing.... and then it atacks, and does nothing again, and then you nottic a bar that was not even explained in tutorial, and then you keep wondering why enemies atack you more often then you atack them. Unortunatuly there is no button to perform atack when you want it, you cant block at will as well, its absolutely rand, and if you will press atack and will not move, and will not focuse on enemy, when it wil aproach you you character will do nothing, and sometimes will randomly block. And there is no dodging and even you will run circles around enemy waiting for your next atack you may get hit even if you look at enemy's back.

This combat system is so frustrating, it does not work as real time combat and it does not work as turn based combat.

Also this zodiac and licence board ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t system just overcomplicates game and limits it features and force you to grind like if you play some WOW or FF XI Online, but at least in WOW you have working real time combat system,in FF12 you only have boring grind.

Old good turn based FF combat was more satisfiying and stategic. Also games like Tales of has much better combat system that mixes real time and turn based JRPG systems very well, and it has automation, self defence and atack strategies, order of actions and evern ability to let game do combat for you (but game does that bad soe you have to control that anyway). FF12 has probably worst combat system in entire series, even god awful FF13 was not that bad during combats.

Actually once i mentioned FF11 online, i realised that FF12 has more in common with this online grind fest than with any other previous FF game, entire structure of world and boring "go there grind this" missions reminds FF online, and even lack of strong focus on story development reminds online grind focused RPG.

Did i mention that i hate online RPGs because i dont find any fun in endless boring grind without immersive gameplay and story? Well, FF12 gives me same feel.

Also, did i mention i hate lack of realism and hate when games screams in your face "I AM GAME, PRESS THIS AND THAT, FOLLOW ARROW, INTERACT WITH HUGE SHINY OBJECT, AND TRY TO SEE GAME WORLD BEHIND CLUTTERING UI SCATTERED AROUND WHOLE SCREEN, AND PRETEND LIKE THESE CHARACTERS WHO STAY HERE AND DO NOTHING, ARE ALIVE, AND PRETENT LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE NOT SEE IN GAME JUST HAPPENED, LIKE WHEN YOU PICKED UP THAT LOOK WITHOUT EVEN BENT OVER ANIMATION AND ANY MOVEMENT OF HAND"?

Well, while ALL FF games are japanesse, up until FFX they was their own thing, where lack of realism was sort of tradition and features of JRPG genre. But FF12 tries to be more like CRPGs, more open and more like real world, and this there it totally falls flat comparing to CRPGs by europeans and americans. Thing is, while japanesse game tries to step into european game genre shoes, it still continues to be japanesse game with all that nonsense, lack of any imiation of real world actions. And this is where JRPGS starts to feel dated. stagnated, liveless. empty and boring. I mean just compare gamplay of FF12 to Gothic 1 or 2, or to gameplay of TES 3-5, Fallout 3-4 or Witcher 1 or 3 or even Fable 1-3 - these games feels like real living worlds, where you can do a lot of things not just do errand boy jobs and grinding animals and bandits, NPCs there has their lives, they work, they eat, they sleep, they can die, they have their activities, and you have yours (especially with mods that makes eating and sleeping and drinking necessary), there is a day nigh cycle, some of named games has weather cycles, some has story of entire life where your character grows up as well as other NPC (shame that trees still dont grow, am i right Peter?), get you body covered with scars withn you get hit and so on, and it all feesl immersive and realistic and it makes all non story focused gameplay interesting, because you are not just grinding, but you are living life of character, you are uploading your mind into his body and forgetting about real world when you play. This is what immersion is!

FF12 lacking this immersion and it has typical japanesse arcadish, consolish, clunky and mediocre game design and when game is not focus on emotional story with interesting characters and epic plots with unforseen (for the 1st 10 times, not in 12, lol) twist, it just does not feel good. And FF12 is that kind of japanesse game.

There are for example clunky japenesse games like Deadly Premonition, but despite flawed execution they sort of try to stay focused on story and open world part is actually filled wiiht immersive real life activies (like you have to shave, eat and drink coffee every morning and go sleep every night, or you may fall asleep during mission and find yourself in a bad situation) so this compensates whic japanesse clunkiness and mediocre feel and makes game interesting outside of story, and when story kicks in it getting even more interesting.

FFX also has some of this japanesse mediocrity and clunkiness, but its focused on story and does not try to be open world too much, yet it open enough to feel some freedom, also FFX feels less like RPG and more like Point and Click adventure game (actually FF7 and 8 felt same way outside of global world map), and with well structured story pacing it does not get boring, and changes locations and situations faster than they can bore you, and when it gets to combat and its still and good final fantasy JRPG which is dated by pays tribute to genre traditions without trying to break what works well for more than dacade. Also when it comes to skill managment and some mini games like that fooball, this is where FFX really gets annoying, but gladly FFX knows that this is not best parts of it, so it does not bother you often with skill managment screens, inventory and other crap.... actually i played like half of game without even opening anything of it, until monsters became way to powerfull so i had to spend some time to manage things for more effective battle outcome, but then i forgot about managment for many more hours, until situation repeated and i had to readjust my items and skill, with FF12 you spend like half of game grindinding and other half managing invetories, skills and other crap...

and you know, RPGs are not about skill sets, inventory, xp grind, levels ups, and all that orthodoxy left overs of board and card based non vide games rpgs, RPGS is about playin a role, this is why its called ROLE PLAYING game... and you know, role playing requires a screen play and stage to act as character, so RPGS are more cinematic an story focused by design. All that D&D and JRPG rule set was just invented to add some random factors for replayability, but main focus is actually on playing a role of character and makine a story.

And FFX is more RPG than FFXII i feel like im playing role of characted in his epic adventure that has a lot of interesting events and situations i have to deal with. I feel like i am a character who i play. With FFXll i feel like not even character, but a game plays me, and forces me to play its fancy overcomplicated unrealistic gameplay systems rather than playin a role in a story.

Also while world is more open in FF12, i kind feel more freedom playing FFX than FFXII, because i dont have to choose profession that limits my skills and set of weapons and magic i can use without any chance to change them. IN FF12 i feel locked out of many game features and play stiles and feel like im forced to play intended limited play style. While in FFX i feel like im making character whatever i want him to be, and while other characters has their profession predefined, they are balanced enough and i can swap them any time and they feel like expansion of my character, expansion that i swap to change play style.

Somehow it does not feel the same with FF12 because o different and quite ♥♥♥♥♥♥ combat system and overcomplicated skill system that limits game way too much and artificially makes it longer and forces you to grind a lot ot progress.

I have a lot of good memories about X from PS2, and when i replayed PC remasters i really enjoyed it (not the X-2 because it really ruined everything and turned X into grind fest with all the bad stuff pumped above safe limits and good stuff reduced to almost nothing).

I dont remember even if played FF12, i remember i saw it, but not completely, i think i skipped it because it was release at age of Xbox 360 release and i already sold my PS2 back than, i think i tried it at my friends home but dont remember that well, the only thing i remember for sure is that graphics was ugly as hell when it was release buti wanted to play it for story.

Story may look promising, game setting is interesting, but with gameplay like that i dont feel like i want to turture myself just to see the story. In addition to that this remaster looks ugly and way worse than FFX remaster... so even graphics of FFX looks better now and looked better back than. Music of FFX also feels better and more like classic FF.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ i just realised one important thing about music FF12 does not have while FF10 had it... its victory fanfares after combat! And every location of FFX had different music. And instead FF12 has same music that plays in loop in one huge area and it gets borring and even annoying after a while. And i did not check credits, but it does not feel like its UEMATSU music, it has some resemblance, few tracks feels like they was written by UEMATSU but most feels like other composers and more generic and not memorable as FF7, 8, 9 and 10 music was, i dont remember which was the Final FF for Uematsu, but im pretty sure his involvment in FFXII was not as deep as in previous game, probably he was too busy with other projects and lost his faith and interest in Square Enix and FF.

Well, there are more things i can say, but in summary X was just more solid game strongly focused on its story that tried to be innovative at story telling but was loayal to its tradition where it matters - in combat and exploration. It was a little dumbed down comparing to previous FFs but it was for better as it removed unnecessary overcomplications that felt dated and focused more on cinematic expirience and adventure gameplay that felt realistic, minimalistic and immersive. Some people criticized it for linearity and minimalism of gameplay... plus as one of 1st PS2 games it was one of the most beatifull games of its time, and it still one of the best looking games from entrire PS2 lineup. Remaster of X on PC looked surprising eye candy and game aged well.

So in FF12 Square did everything opposite, and added some of MMORPG like elements, and game lost its focus on story, and gameplay innovation was just bad where it mattered the most - in combat, and rest of gameplay was dated and i dont know about story as gameplay bored me before i can get deep into story and i lost interest and forgot about FF. Also it was one of the last PS2 games, and it was one of the ugliest games of PS, due of WIDER world and not so wide optimization skills game had ugly POP INs, blury as♥♥♥♥♥♥textures, low poly models and♥♥♥♥♥♥load of loading screens, different between CGI and gameplay was way too noticable, somehow FF7-10 all felt more detailed with their static prerendered (pre X) and real-time 3d backgrounds with static camera positions, than FF12. FF12 still look ugly even at this lazy remaster, and it did not age well.

And i have a feeling that story of 12 may end up worse than 13.... because 12 managed to have worst combat system i ever saw in FF games, even 13 was better when it was in combat mode.

The last good FF was like 9, ignoring that ♥♥♥♥ show 8.

[Vayne]

FFX is crap and way too overrated

[Ze]

I doubt you are the only one.

[Keiq]

I actually liked FFX and the story so meh