Shouldn't we remove the "immortal" perk ?

[Cadelanne]

I can see why it's there but I find it's more bad than good. Wouldn't it be much better if you could actually kill these experienced lords (or lose them for that matter) ?

A leveled lord add a ton to an army and taking one of these down should be a short term goal, as it is now it doesn't matter he'll come back 5 turns later. Don't you think it's rather lame ?

[Hurricane]

Op youre wrong... the human player 100% wins every campaign... your change would only make it easier and dumb. Please l2p before posting silly threads

[V ! P]

Originally posted by TVMAN:

I did confed a faction recently that had some immortal heroes, and it was annoying having to disband them every 5 turns or so. At the very least, disbanding an immortal hero should return them to your recruitment pool like disbanding an immortal lord does. That's my only real gripe with the system.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1887317037

[OwlRaider]

Originally posted by Dreagon:

Originally posted by zacharyb:

Well there just needs to be a permanent delete button for Lords and Heroes, would be way better than having to suicide them.

You can just dispand them, that solves it pretty much. Sure, they are still in your recruitment pool but that's no big deal. Unless the hero is immortal, in that case he will respawn on the map.

Disbanding immortal heroes doesn't work, they will pop up automatically when their timer is up. Annoying when you want to get rid of them when they're no longer needed, for example High Elf nobles you used to farm reputation with until you just don't need to anymore. I mean sure you can simply not take the trait but that's pretty dumb to not take a perfectly useful trait just to avoid annoying unnecessary inconveniences later.

[Cadelanne]

Originally posted by Hurricane:

Op youre wrong... the human player 100% wins every campaign... your change would only make it easier and dumb. Please l2p before posting silly threads

Wow a solo game in which the player wins, astonishing !

[Reaver79]

Would love that trait gone, also from LL's if they can't cut it i guess they wherent that legendary after all.
It's annoying to watch those suicide missiles reapear time after time.

[Wh♂♂par]

Optional for the people that want it. Meaning mods. That's all fine.

[Humble]

I do understand if lord and hero that are mortal, but no way to removed if undead faction as undead isn't mortal, but immortal, I'm not sure about other race, is elve isn't mortal or are mortal but long time? So no removed for undead at least. But in the end, it's better not to remove at all, I think lot of player get anger if lord and hero got killed after hard work level up

[Reaver79]

Originally posted by Wh♂♂par:

Optional for the people that want it. Meaning mods. That's all fine.

naturally.

[zefyris]

that would give to races who can easily recruit higher level lords a catastrophic advantage over any other races. For examples Lizardmen can recruit their best type of lords (Slaans) at level 30-40 very, very easily. Whereas some other races struggle to go over 10 because most of the bonus to recruit lord level are located in super costly tier 5 buildings and the like.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by zefyris:

that would give to races who can easily recruit higher level lords a catastrophic advantage over any other races. For examples Lizardmen can recruit their best type of lords (Slaans) at level 30-40 very, very easily. Whereas some other races struggle to go over 10 because most of the bonus to recruit lord level are located in super costly tier 5 buildings and the like.

Yes, good point.

Originally posted by Cadelanne:

I played warhammer 1 and although I agree that heroes shouldn't be able to permanently assassinate lords, losing a leveled lord on the battlefield was just legit, as you say they're important pieces so you should play them safe and if you don't well you pay the price for it.

You're not understanding what I'm trying to imply here. Immortality skill is not the fix to the assassin-killing-lord crap. It is somewhat of a QoL. This game is a strategy game. Some strategies don't materialize until you made a few errors. Some of those errors are during battle. You want those lords permanently killed off just because of a few errors, and you want that change to be implemented across the board for every player. Have you considered how many people will ragequit because they try something new and they just ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up 20+ hours of campaign because they missed a micro detail or whatnot? Or a bug screwed them over?

This game isn't marketed as rogue-like or roguelite or anything. There is a great deal of investment placed on those lords and heroes, such as the current Bretonnian ones. Those vows were not easy to get.

I just lost a Bretonnian lord to Deathmaster Snikch, because he ambushed him. Because of my player disadvantages, I couldn't give him any troops due to upkeep costs (and peasant limit), but he already had 2 Vows done. Then Snikch came and off'd him, 20-stack vs 1, despite reinforcement right next to him.

I'm not complaining because the lord was not at level 20. In fact, even if he was, he would still need the 3rd Vow to be immortalized. But imagine if you had some lords all immortalized with 3 Vows then some Skaven armies came and ambushed them one by one, 3v1 each time. You didn't stand a chance, they all died. So, you're going to happily retrain those dead lords, get back all those Vows all over again?

Have you considered the Tomb Kings? Immortality is their jig. They don't need level 20, they're immortal the moment they're hired. (Except heroes, I don't know why.) When you remove the immortality trait across the board, people will start calling CA out as selling a P2W DLC aka. Tomb Kings DLC, because TKs have immortality and others don't. TKs can afford to make mistakes, others can't.

Seriously, consider things outside your box, please.

[Edit] If you're thinking LLs should also not be immortal; what about Nakai? What about any of the hordes? Right now, they lose a ton for dying, they have to rebuild from scratch. But that's if they have another lord sitting around, hiding in a cave biding for time. Oh wait, AI can see you no matter where you are on the map, they'll swarm that cave where you'll likely be respawning out of soon.

A permanent death to any of the horde LLs means "sorry, you ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, restart your 200-hour campaign please".

If you want to play rogue-like, go play Darkest Dungeons. Look at their game design. Their lords-equivalent - heroes - are basically throwaway units that you can send into dungeons and fire them when they come out. But you can hire any number of them. (Technically, 30 of them iirc, but you can always fire them and get new ones.) In DD, many people ragequit due to no immortality already. But the game is advertised as such. Total War isn't, or at least CA didn't want this to go in that direction because everyone knows rogue-like is a good way to lose money if you ♥♥♥♥♥♥ it up. If you want your WH2 game to be rogue-like, then mod it just like what other people are suggesting here.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by Cadelanne:

Originally posted by Hurricane:

Op youre wrong... the human player 100% wins every campaign... your change would only make it easier and dumb. Please l2p before posting silly threads

Wow a solo game in which the player wins, astonishing !

Hurricane meant more tongue in cheek, perhaps. Because human players eventually find a set strategy to win (you can always do it via cheesing), giving them a malus for trying something new will only discourage them from playing as intended i.e. explore different options, try new things.

[Falaris]

There's a bunch of ways to adjust immortality.

1: Lose levels and corresponding skills with each death.
2: As 1, except you can not lose immortality even below lvl 20.
3: More aggressively add death traits or crippling injuries. (You got back up, but lost an eye/hand/leg).
4: If you're killed by a chaos lord or warpstone weapon, you stay dead. No coming back.

However, like many others, I am NOT fond of losing a high level hero or lord I've painstakingly built up to a random stab in the dark. It's rage inducing enough to lose a lvl 19 hero.

The point funkmonster brings up about factions with more immortal units than others is relevant. I would say that, to my knowledge only the dynasty lords are immortal, not the regular lords you recruit off the streets. As with vampire coast, their admirals are also immortal off the bat.These lords are, however, 'semi-legendary', and are there because they can't confederate, so I think that's somewhat fair - at least if legendary lords are still immortal.

I like immortality. I can see how it has drawbacks, and wouldn't mind some adjustment, but the nice thing is, that's why we have mods. As a generic change for everyone, I think it would be a bad idea.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by Falaris:

There's a bunch of ways to adjust immortality.

1: Lose levels and corresponding skills with each death.
2: As 1, except you can not lose immortality even below lvl 20.
3: More aggressively add death traits or crippling injuries. (You got back up, but lost an eye/hand/leg).
4: If you're killed by a chaos lord, you stay dead. No coming back.

1. Difficult to implement. Which skill does the lord lose when he delevels? The game doesn't recognize the order you take those skills, only what you switched on (true/false).
2. Same thing.
3. I think there are some already. If you die enough times, you get something like "Fear of Skaven, -5 MA/MD" (this is just an example).
4. Not sure... Chaos Invasion was difficult in WH1. Right now, Chaos Invasion is a joke. Even if they are as they were in WH1, what gives Chaos lords the special right? I mean, I can see what you're thinking here. They're like reapers from hell. But, Chaos is, well, Chaos... Not exactly a heaven-or-hell situation, Chaos is a different realm, not exactly death itself. Thematically it just feels weird, no offense. ^_^

[Falaris]

Originally posted by funkmonster7:

Originally posted by Falaris:

There's a bunch of ways to adjust immortality.

1: Lose levels and corresponding skills with each death.
2: As 1, except you can not lose immortality even below lvl 20.
3: More aggressively add death traits or crippling injuries. (You got back up, but lost an eye/hand/leg).
4: If you're killed by a chaos lord, you stay dead. No coming back.

1. Difficult to implement. Which skill does the lord lose when he delevels? The game doesn't recognize the order you take those skills, only what you switched on (true/false).
2. Same thing.
3. I think there are some already. If you die enough times, you get something like "Fear of Skaven, -5 MA/MD" (this is just an example).
4. Not sure... Chaos Invasion was difficult in WH1. Right now, Chaos Invasion is a joke. Even if they are as they were in WH1, what gives Chaos lords the special right? I mean, I can see what you're thinking here. They're like reapers from hell. But, Chaos is, well, Chaos... Not exactly a heaven-or-hell situation, Chaos is a different realm, not exactly death itself. Thematically it just feels weird, no offense. ^_^

About 1 & 2 - just losing a skill at random wouldn't be difficult to implement. Some skills would be a little problematic, but they could be removed from the pool of skills drawn randomly for reduction.

About 3: There is. That's why I said 'more aggressively'. The OP's point is that it is too trivial. I'm not really suggesting an exact implementation here, just the general principle: Make it less trivial, but not permadeath. Don't nitpick the details, this is not a design document. Nitpick the principle.

About 4: Well, in the Gotrek and Felix books, warpstone weapons were used to kill things more permanently, so magic couldn't revive them, that's why they were especially feared. This was in large part because they're concentrated chaos. That's why I'm thinking it could extend to chaos lords and such. They're supposed to end the world. The least they can do is end a hero/lord. :) But yeah, it's just a thought.

[Archarius]

I'll just leave it here.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1504884906