Vampire Counts in WH 2 mortal empires

[Ray]

Hey guys, so Ive been thinking about VC in the upcoming mortal empires patch. Seems to me like they might be in some major trouble.

It no longer seems justified to deny them ranged units. Before wh1 was released they were made that way, because they had the best flying units. With bretonia and now the high elves that is not even close to being the case anymore. And both these factions have good ranged, espcially high elves. But I guess one can still find a way to live with that, and Vargheists are still pretty nice.

But >more importantly< VC doesnt have valid anti large options. Lets take the lizardmen and imagine some of their large units charging into a VC army...
Skeleton spearmen are just trash, no armor piercing and can pretty much be ignored. Blood knights are expensive and without armor piercing not nearly enough damage. Plus, temple guard in the rear make for an easy counter. Finally the terrogheist. Expensive and no longer seems to be on par with high tier wh2 large units. At least in the recent total war stream he got completly destroyed by a star dragon at half health in seconds. I can imagine a carnosaur or hell pit doing the same.

So what are your thoughts on this? Does VC need some Grave Guard with halberds?

[Darkaiser]

There was an option for halberds in TT so the prescedent is there. I believe the dragons will all get a balance pass before the release next week because the Vargheist doesn't have a breath weapon.

As for archers, VC should never have them. Their counters are similar to Skaven, trash units to soak fire until you close to melee, except the trash for the VC can be healed through magic.

I expect Ethereal units will get a slight buff regarding shooting. There aren't many of them and right now they get shot pretty bad. Elves, in both flavors, will make this works.

[Kinja]

Nope, they're not supposed to have archers, there's a valid lore reason behind it. I've seen Grave Guards with Halberds in the TT tho, but i have no idea what edition that was from, so they might get that option. Hopefully CA has/will buff their stats in general to keep them competitive with the other races.

[HobbyCathartic]

The last time I played tabletop Warhammer the Undead had archers.

[Morrtanius]

Terrorgheists remain more than viable Anti Large units.

[Kayeka]

Originally posted by Wu Ziheng:

The last time I played tabletop Warhammer the Undead had archers.

Yeah, because they got unified with the Tomb Kings in End Times. It's Tomb Kings that have archers available, not Vampire counts.

[gachi is manly]

They've got good anti large options but they're expensive.

Pretty much jumps from skeleton spears to Blood Knights and Terrogheists.

Their lack of dedicated anti-large isn't a big deal right now. Only race that it will give them trouble would be Ogre Kingdoms which is 99% large units.

Originally posted by Ray:

At least in the recent total war stream he got completly destroyed by a star dragon at half health in seconds. I can imagine a carnosaur or hell pit doing the same.

Nah, Star Dragons are a step above almost every monster. It's more fair to compare them to a unit of similar worth (Moon Dragons.)

[HobbyCathartic]

Originally posted by Kayeka:

Originally posted by Wu Ziheng:

The last time I played tabletop Warhammer the Undead had archers.

Yeah, because they got unified with the Tomb Kings in End Times. It's Tomb Kings that have archers available, not Vampire counts.

No, I'm talking before Tomb Kings were ever a thing. Back when they also had the screaming skull catapult. The book was, "Warhammer Armies Undead"

[Aenarion]

Vampires OP

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1176067497

[gachi is manly]

Originally posted by Wu Ziheng:

Originally posted by Kayeka:

Yeah, because they got unified with the Tomb Kings in End Times. It's Tomb Kings that have archers available, not Vampire counts.

No, I'm talking before Tomb Kings were ever a thing. Back when they also had the screaming skull catapult. The book was, "Warhammer Armies Undead"

Yep they used to have archers once upon a time. And Beastmen, WoC, and Daemons were all one race too.

[Ray]

Originally posted by rymeintrinseca:

Vampires OP

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853855683709581578/1A990CFB938655AEFE19802F9C5D18BC73F5C3E6/

Meh thats the campaign, and when the ai auto resolves everything. I mean an actual battle.

Currently even blood knights might not be enough against some large units. Stegadons with 140 armor or carnosaurs and star dragons come to mind.
Gonna test them against eachohther once mortal empires comes.

[Aenarion]

Being able to autoresolve effectively is not to be discounted. Just ask the skaven.

Though I think it was just a fluke on that game that Vampire Coast ended up dominant. They were one of the first factions wiped on my current game.

[Maschinengewehr]

I think Greenskins are going to need a look into as well.

Them and VCs are definitely the weaker outliers due to power creep.

[Aenarion]

Brets are not going to be in a good place either. If Blood Knights won't do the job then Bret knights won't either.

[Ark]

Originally posted by Ray:

Hey guys, so Ive been thinking about VC in the upcoming mortal empires patch. Seems to me like they might be in some major trouble.

It no longer seems justified to deny them ranged units. Before wh1 was released they were made that way, because they had the best flying units. With bretonia and now the high elves that is not even close to being the case anymore. And both these factions have good ranged, espcially high elves. But I guess one can still find a way to live with that, and Vargheists are still pretty nice.

But >more importantly< VC doesnt have valid anti large options. Lets take the lizardmen and imagine some of their large units charging into a VC army...
Skeleton spearmen are just trash, no armor piercing and can pretty much be ignored. Blood knights are expensive and without armor piercing not nearly enough damage. Plus, temple guard in the rear make for an easy counter. Finally the terrogheist. Expensive and no longer seems to be on par with high tier wh2 large units. At least in the recent total war stream he got completly destroyed by a star dragon at half health in seconds. I can imagine a carnosaur or hell pit doing the same.

So what are your thoughts on this? Does VC need some Grave Guard with halberds?

you do know that CA is following the army list made by games workshop since games workshop ownes it all. CA cant just add Archer just because it would be better it breaks the lore for warhammer.

sure it would be nice but it makes no sense lore wise

and to make it more clear Tomb kings are not like Vampire counts both undead but both pretty different so lets not add this to the topic please (happend before)

[Kinja]

Originally posted by rymeintrinseca:

Brets are not going to be in a good place either. If Blood Knights won't do the job then Bret knights won't either.

Exactly, i think Bretonnia is in a much worse position than any other faction atm. Their infantry is trash tier for the most part and the new world factions have a ton of anti-large options and monsters. Tho i don't really see what CA could do for them, they already have all their units from TT and i've not really seen them shine there either so... You will probably have to get extra cheesy with them to stand a chance now.