How many knights in a knightly order? (lore and history)

[VicRummy]

In history, we know that knighthood orders are not all knights, there are some soldiers who are not from noble background.
My question is how many men are actually knights in an order in history? I mean what's the ratio of knights in an order? Are all the riders serve are knights or normal soldiers charge in foes with knights together?
And in Warhammer Fantasy, how many knights are in, say reiksguard? If you have read Reiksuard by Richard Williams, he mentioned soldiers (non-noble) in reiksguard too.

Thx in advance

[The Notorious GSB]

I can't find sources for the actual knightly orders themselves, but if we take a 'Lance Fournie' as a representative examples (a 'lance' is the smallest self-contained medieval units, give or take) of a medieval military unit...

From Wikipedia:

"[From the French] compagnies d'ordonnance "Les lances fournies pour les compagnies d'ordenance du Roi." or The lances furnished for the companies ordered by the King. Upon the original establishment of the French compagnies d'ordonnance, the lances fournies were formed around a man-at-arms (a fully armored man on an armored horse) with a retinue of a page or squire, two or three archers, and a (slightly) lighter horseman known as the serjeant-at-arms or coutilier (literally "dagger man," a contemporary term for mounted bandits and brigands). All members in a lance were mounted for travel but only the man-at-arms and the coutilier were regularly expected to fight on horseback, though of course both members were also trained and equipped for dismounted action. Lances would be further organized as companies, each company numbering about 100 lances, effectively 400 plus fighting men and servants. These companies were sustained even in peace, and became the first standing army in modern Europe."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lances_fournies

I guess that's as good an example as any...

[Wyvern]

Supposedly something like 10% of the knights templar were actual knights(which meant that at their peak over 1000 knights presumably). I dont think the soldiery/men at arms that fought for the orders were generally a part of the order themselves, at least not in the case of the teutons, though I could be wrong(its been a while since I read up on the subject)

As for warhammer, I have no idea how many are in the reiksguard(besides "however many the plot demands") but in the Emperors Armies book I do believe a company of Reiksguard is 100 knights. How exactly theyre distributed around the empire is anybody's guess.

[VicRummy]

Originally posted by The Count:

I can't find sources for the actual knightly orders themselves, but if we take a 'Lance Fournie' as a representative examples (a 'lance' is the smallest self-contained medieval units, give or take) of a medieval military unit...

From Wikipedia:

"[From the French] compagnies d'ordonnance "Les lances fournies pour les compagnies d'ordenance du Roi." or The lances furnished for the companies ordered by the King. Upon the original establishment of the French compagnies d'ordonnance, the lances fournies were formed around a man-at-arms (a fully armored man on an armored horse) with a retinue of a page or squire, two or three archers, and a (slightly) lighter horseman known as the serjeant-at-arms or coutilier (literally "dagger man," a contemporary term for mounted bandits and brigands). All members in a lance were mounted for travel but only the man-at-arms and the coutilier were regularly expected to fight on horseback, though of course both members were also trained and equipped for dismounted action. Lances would be further organized as companies, each company numbering about 100 lances, effectively 400 plus fighting men and servants. These companies were sustained even in peace, and became the first standing army in modern Europe."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lances_fournies

I guess that's as good an example as any...

Thx. That taught me a lot. So in history the knight himself charge with his daggerman together? I mean like this formation of heavy cavalry is formed with knights, their daggermen, perhaps squires? Cuz I reckon it is very hard to rally thousands of cavalry (as in history recorded) and they are all knights, the king must have been desperate and thrown in everything he has.

[VicRummy]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Supposedly something like 10% of the knights templar were actual knights(which meant that at their peak over 1000 knights presumably). I dont think the soldiery/men at arms that fought for the orders were generally a part of the order themselves, at least not in the case of the teutons, though I could be wrong(its been a while since I read up on the subject)

As for warhammer, I have no idea how many are in the reiksguard(besides "however many the plot demands") but in the Emperors Armies book I do believe a company of Reiksguard is 100 knights. How exactly theyre distributed around the empire is anybody's guess.

Thx, that's exactly what I was wondering. So lorewise, given the big poppulation of Empire and large size of state troops, can we say empire knights are a rare sight among their soldiers? And shall a heavy cavalry formation is summoned, not all of them are knights? Some of them are soldiers with medals or knights' squires?

[The Notorious GSB]

Originally posted by VicRummy:

Originally posted by The Count:

I can't find sources for the actual knightly orders themselves, but if we take a 'Lance Fournie' as a representative examples (a 'lance' is the smallest self-contained medieval units, give or take) of a medieval military unit...

From Wikipedia:

"[From the French] compagnies d'ordonnance "Les lances fournies pour les compagnies d'ordenance du Roi." or The lances furnished for the companies ordered by the King. Upon the original establishment of the French compagnies d'ordonnance, the lances fournies were formed around a man-at-arms (a fully armored man on an armored horse) with a retinue of a page or squire, two or three archers, and a (slightly) lighter horseman known as the serjeant-at-arms or coutilier (literally "dagger man," a contemporary term for mounted bandits and brigands). All members in a lance were mounted for travel but only the man-at-arms and the coutilier were regularly expected to fight on horseback, though of course both members were also trained and equipped for dismounted action. Lances would be further organized as companies, each company numbering about 100 lances, effectively 400 plus fighting men and servants. These companies were sustained even in peace, and became the first standing army in modern Europe."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lances_fournies

I guess that's as good an example as any...

Thx. That taught me a lot. So in history the knight himself charge with his daggerman together? I mean like this formation of heavy cavalry is formed with knights, their daggermen, perhaps squires? Cuz I reckon it is very hard to rally thousands of cavalry (as in history recorded) and they are all knights, the king must have been desperate and thrown in everything he has.

Well, the 'Lance' is really more of a logistical unit than an outright fighting unit. Absolutely there would be occasions where the soldiers involved would end up having to fight together, but it wasn't the optimal situation by any means and would probably be an ad hoc arrangement.

In the case of an outright 'pitched battle', say, Agincourt, for instance (I'm British, so forgive my Anglo-French/Norman bias) the English nobles (fighting on foot) and their supporting infantry formed the centre of the line, with the archers on the wings behind prepared defences.

The French knights charged into the battle first, with no success, and were followed up by the infantry... unfortunately for the French, their archers and crossbows were behind the line and unable to help and... we all know what happens at the end of the story...

From this we can infer that troops of a similar equipment would have fought together en masse... presumably the difference between a true, noble knight and a commoner in armour is very small when you need them, as you say.

[VicRummy]

thank you British, I'm Australian so as a descendant of british criminals I couln't know anything about nobility.

[The Notorious GSB]

Originally posted by VicRummy:

thank you British, I'm Australian so as a descendant of british criminals I couln't know anything about nobility.

They're all ♥♥♥♥♥! You were right to run and hide on the other side of the world...

[Maschinengewehr]

It's difficult to say. Warhammer is deliberately vague on population and numbers. I guess its mostly due to supposedly "dying" races surviving endless war for millennia.

[Battlekruse]

I can remember that in one of the old Bretonnia army book they mention that have a army of 10,000 knights to protect Bretonnia.

But I think thats include them all, Knights Errant, Questing Knight, Grail Knights and Knights of the Realm etc.

Don´t know about The Empire, but it can only fare more less, maybe around 1000 knights or something.

[VicRummy]

Originally posted by Battlekruse:

I can remember that in one of the old Bretonnia army book they mention that have a army of 10,000 knights to protect Bretonnia.

But I think thats include them all, Knights Errant, Questing Knight, Grail Knights and Knights of the Realm etc.

Don´t know about The Empire, but it can only fare more less, maybe around 1000 knights or something.

I don't think Empire has only about 1000 knights. Cuz in the lore, knights of the black rose is mentioned to be a small knightly order, and they are known to keep this small number of 100 knights. And that couldn't be 10% of the knights that the entire Empire can offer. But yeah, I think CA left that for us to decide.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by VicRummy:

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Supposedly something like 10% of the knights templar were actual knights(which meant that at their peak over 1000 knights presumably). I dont think the soldiery/men at arms that fought for the orders were generally a part of the order themselves, at least not in the case of the teutons, though I could be wrong(its been a while since I read up on the subject)

As for warhammer, I have no idea how many are in the reiksguard(besides "however many the plot demands") but in the Emperors Armies book I do believe a company of Reiksguard is 100 knights. How exactly theyre distributed around the empire is anybody's guess.

Thx, that's exactly what I was wondering. So lorewise, given the big poppulation of Empire and large size of state troops, can we say empire knights are a rare sight among their soldiers? And shall a heavy cavalry formation is summoned, not all of them are knights? Some of them are soldiers with medals or knights' squires?

I'd say knights are rare in the sense that they only make up a small portion of the imperial army as a whole, but there's still a good chunk of knights regardless, definitely more than say warriors priests, steam tanks or other esoteric shenanigans. Probably more on par with how many greatswords there are. Do keep in mind that in the empire not everybody makes it into a knightly order, and many young nobles actually serve as pistoliers or even outriders while hoping to become a knight, or perhaps get a technical education as an engineer.

As for who gets to be a knight, mostly nobles really. Technically an ordinary state trooper can become a knight(and it does happen more often than in brettonia, as the empire is more meritocratic), but its probably more likely an experienced state trooper in a position to get such a promotion would go on to become a greatsword or just acquire a commanding position within the military hierarchy, after all it wouldn't really make sense for a senior infantryman to suddenly start training to be a professional horseman/cavalryman. Squires don't seem to do any fighting either based on the Emperor's Armies, as the squires working with the knights panther basically just bringthem lances/help them prepare. Second of all the empires noble->knight pipeline seems to be different than historically/in brettonias case, with the aforementioned early training/equipping as pistoliers in many cases before getting accepted into a knightly order at some point.

[VicRummy]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Originally posted by VicRummy:

Thx, that's exactly what I was wondering. So lorewise, given the big poppulation of Empire and large size of state troops, can we say empire knights are a rare sight among their soldiers? And shall a heavy cavalry formation is summoned, not all of them are knights? Some of them are soldiers with medals or knights' squires?

I'd say knights are rare in the sense that they only make up a small portion of the imperial army as a whole, but there's still a good chunk of knights regardless, definitely more than say warriors priests, steam tanks or other esoteric shenanigans. Probably more on par with how many greatswords there are. Do keep in mind that in the empire not everybody makes it into a knightly order, and many young nobles actually serve as pistoliers or even outriders while hoping to become a knight, or perhaps get a technical education as an engineer.

As for who gets to be a knight, mostly nobles really. Technically an ordinary state trooper can become a knight(and it does happen more often than in brettonia, as the empire is more meritocratic), but its probably more likely an experienced state trooper in a position to get such a promotion would go on to become a greatsword or just acquire a commanding position within the military hierarchy, after all it wouldn't really make sense for a senior infantryman to suddenly start training to be a professional horseman/cavalryman. Squires don't seem to do any fighting either based on the Emperor's Armies, as the squires working with the knights panther basically just bringthem lances/help them prepare. Second of all the empires noble->knight pipeline seems to be different than historically/in brettonias case, with the aforementioned early training/equipping as pistoliers in many cases before getting accepted into a knightly order at some point.

Yeah I think you are right. Are there any state troop shock cavalry who are not knights in the lore? Who are not so heavily armored perhaps?

[Wyvern]

Not as far as lore is concerned. Unless one of the knightly orders has some weird recruiting policy im not aware of, the only non-noble/knightly cav empire maintains is outriders, who are generally very experienced and capable commoners hired to guide/teach pistoliers or young nobles.