people insist to not bring fatalis to dragonator for 2 full hits, why?

[Noel]

title

[Agoraphobic Meep]

Are you putting in chat that you're luring fatty and need people to come over to you? If people are actively dodging and punishing fatty and generally trying not to die they're not going to randomly 180 their camera and notice you standing on the ledge

Little bit of communication goes a long way

[Poyzo]

Playing with randoms will have unexpected results.

[Noel]

Originally posted by Agoraphobic Meep:

Are you putting in chat that you're luring fatty and need people to come over to you? If people are actively dodging and punishing fatty and generally trying not to die they're not going to randomly 180 their camera and notice you standing on the ledge

Little bit of communication goes a long way

thought it's optimal to lure fatalis into 2 dragonator hitzone for knockdown and ending it asap, so I stand there thinking they will lure. maybe next time I'll chat them, just hope fatalis won't suddenly give me a charged fireball

[Agoraphobic Meep]

Originally posted by Noel:

Originally posted by Agoraphobic Meep:

Are you putting in chat that you're luring fatty and need people to come over to you? If people are actively dodging and punishing fatty and generally trying not to die they're not going to randomly 180 their camera and notice you standing on the ledge

Little bit of communication goes a long way

thought it's optimal to lure fatalis into 2 dragonator hitzone for knockdown and ending it asap, so I stand there thinking they will lure. maybe next time I'll chat them, just hope fatalis won't suddenly give me a charged fireball

It is optimal, but like Poyzo said, randoms are random, and randoms won't always know when to run to the dragonator. 95 percent of the time hunters are never optimal. You're lucky if you get people who bring HA2 for the roaming ballista and know how to smoke.

[Jereweeb]

I'd imagine veterans will know or at least pay attention to when the dragonators are ready, but I can imagine that newbie randoms would easily fail to notice the dragonator notification amidst combat. If you're luring, you should always tell the chat, especially if you're someone with heavy artillery 2, or are trying to sleep fatalis in front of it. Dragonator is ALWAYS optimal, especially if you can land both hits with HA2. Not to mention the proof of a hero buff. I cannot imagine any scenario where its instantaneous 10% HP dps in 2-3 seconds can be outmatched in any circumstances.

[Noel]

I thought it's because of safety or whatever dps reasons they don't lure, turns out to be they doesn't knowledge this

[Scooter]

Originally posted by Noel:

I thought it's because of safety or whatever dps reasons they don't lure, turns out to be they doesn't knowledge this:mhwhappy:

If it's 3 GS who knows how to snipe heads then I can see that being an argument.
But randoms..... "MUH DEEPS!" + 0 spatial awareness = this nonsense.

Had an IG random literally doing the aerial beyblade nonstop throughout the run and when everyone positioned themselves to the dragonator, the numbskull was unsurprisingly still busy roleplaying as a fly all the way at the other edge of the map.

It is what it is.

[Tenz]

Doing fatalis in an open multiplayer, lol.

[Noel]

Originally posted by Tenz:

Doing fatalis in an open multiplayer, lol.

got everything fatalis related, no point in solo farming

[ressenmacher]

Because it's unnecessary and prolongs the fight by sacrificing uptime.

The dragonator does about 17,000 damage to Fatalis. Subtracting that and the ~16,000 you get off two roaming balistas, 3 and 4 person Fatty has ~140,000 HP. A good team can do fatty in about 15 minutes of combat time, meaning the manual damage people are dishing out is about 9,300/minute.

If everyone stands on the dragonator and Fatty decides to sit back and shoot fireballs while slow-walking into range, you can easily waste like 30+ seconds standing there doing nothing, meaning you lose like 5,000 potential damage. It's better in my opinion to just wait until an opening naturally presents itself as Fatty moves around the arena - there's no pressure to use the dragonator right away, as long as it's fired before the end of the fight the damage is done.

[Jereweeb]

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

If everyone stands on the dragonator and Fatty decides to sit back and shoot fireballs while slow-walking into range, you can easily waste like 30+ seconds standing there doing nothing, meaning you lose like 5,000 potential damage.

This is a good point to bring up, but I think the overall premise is wrong. When I mentioned baiting on my comment, no one, and I mean absolutely NO ONE, is allowed to stand on the elevated sides of the castle where the dragonator handle is on. Everyone should stand on low ground until Fatalis comes.

As for loss of dps... it's incredibly rare for an SOS team to be able to perform that well. 9300/minute for 4 players means 2325/minute per player, or 38.75 dps. I'd say that's pretty much accurate for an average competent player. A good player that can solo Fatalis easily averages in 50-60 dps, and a god player who knows a lot of shortcuts and dps tricks can reach 70ish, but that's suspicious levels of dps. I know this because I always have HunterPie on.

But I must emphasize on "competent" players. Having observed both SOS and Fatalis lobbies fights with HunterPie on, I can assure you: most people are clueless. You'll be ultra lucky to have all 4 players reach even above 30 dps, but by then, dragonators wouldn't even be an option because Fatalis dies before it can even be used. Most people deal 20 dps or less.

So the scenario where dragonators can be used must be a scenario where the overall player's dps is averaged into <= 30 dps, which means one or more player is sandbagging the entire team. If that's the case, then dragonators will have far more value, hence I mentioned it's always worth to use it: if you can use it, then you needed the dps boost to begin with.

But this all doesn't really matter because... 30+ seconds of standing still? Some clueless players probably do that, but that certainly shouldn't be the norm. If all 4 players are there, then chances are, he'll crawl straight to you in 5 seconds. Otherwise, every members should bait him slowly there while still fighting along the way.

I haven't even mentioned the siege damage knockout. Unless you somehow knocked him out twice with cannons + ballista, then it's a guaranteed knockout. That increases your team dps by a noteworthy lot, not even counting the guaranteed 5/10% HP yoink from dragonators alone.

If your entire team is competent, you won't even get to use dragonators before cooldown. If you can use it, that means your team is probably not competent enough, and it's always worth to do it.

[ressenmacher]

Originally posted by Jereweeb:

So the scenario where dragonators can be used must be a scenario where the overall player's dps is averaged into <= 30 dps, which means one or more player is sandbagging the entire team. If that's the case, then dragonators will have far more value, hence I mentioned it's always worth to use it: if you can use it, then you needed the dps boost to begin with.

But this all doesn't really matter because... 30+ seconds of standing still? Some clueless players probably do that, but that certainly shouldn't be the norm. If all 4 players are there, then chances are, he'll crawl straight to you in 5 seconds. Otherwise, every members should bait him slowly there while still fighting along the way.

You make a good point in that Fatty's dead or dying by the time the dragonator comes up with good players - I'd forgotten that about it.

As for how long it takes Fatalis to get to the dragonators, it depends on where it is in relation to the players and on luck. Especially if it was standing in the very front of the arena and then everyone moved to the dragonator, I've had a couple cases where Fatty slow-walked into range between shooting fireballs, which takes absolute ages. It's even worse if people want to stand on the switch, as that allows Fatty to perform timewasters like the horizontal firebreath and aimed full-charged fireballs.

That is the exception rather than the norm though, and I'd agree that I'm probably overestimating the DPS loss to get him there (especially with a bad team, where doing damage safely >>> doing damage fast). I'd amend my position to agree that soft-baiting Fatty to the dragonator is probably the best option in that scenario.

Originally posted by Jereweeb:

I haven't even mentioned the siege damage knockout. Unless you somehow knocked him out twice with cannons + ballista, then it's a guaranteed knockout. That increases your team dps by a noteworthy lot, not even counting the guaranteed 5/10% HP yoink from dragonators alone.

You probably have better information given you're running HunterPie, but I was always under the impression that the dragonator knockdown was a separate scripted topple that you always get regardless of siege damage, and of a shorter duration than the siege knockdown (7-8 sec vs 11-12 sec). Are you sure they're one and the same?

Originally posted by Jereweeb:

If your entire team is competent, you won't even get to use dragonators before cooldown. If you can use it, that means your team is probably not competent enough, and it's always worth to do it. :mhwgood:

I think you're right overall. I'd also note that if someone does decide to try and bait to it, whatever your feelings on the matter are it's probably better to go bait with them and lose a few seconds of team DPS rather than let that player wait there doing no damage for a minute plus.

[Jereweeb]

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

You probably have better information given you're running HunterPie, but I was always under the impression that the dragonator knockdown was a separate scripted topple that you always get regardless of siege damage, and of a shorter duration than the siege knockdown (7-8 sec vs 11-12 sec). Are you sure they're one and the same?

I don't have 100% confidence about this, but as far as I'm aware, Fatalis can only be knocked down up to 2x with siege dmg. 1st KO is at 1000 siege damage, 2nd at 3000 (not counting the first 1000). So to get the 2nd KO, you need 4000 siege damage, which is a bit wacky to do with just ballista and cannons, but I guess not impossible. Unless you already got the 2nd KO, dragonator is just gonna guarantee a KO because of its sheer damage.

As for the KO duration, I have absolutely zero clue. Thought it'd be the exact same, and haven't seen any written guide/info saying otherwise, but I guess it's possible. Never really counted either, though I know for 100% certainty the siege KO is a lot quicker than the horn break KO

[ressenmacher]

Originally posted by Jereweeb:

I don't have 100% confidence about this, but as far as I'm aware, Fatalis can only be knocked down up to 2x with siege dmg. 1st KO is at 1000 siege damage, 2nd at 3000 (not counting the first 1000). So to get the 2nd KO, you need 4000 siege damage, which is a bit wacky to do with just ballista and cannons, but I guess not impossible. Unless you already got the 2nd KO, dragonator is just gonna guarantee a KO because of its sheer damage.

As for the KO duration, I have absolutely zero clue. Thought it'd be the exact same, and haven't seen any written guide/info saying otherwise, but I guess it's possible. Never really counted either, though I know for 100% certainty the siege KO is a lot quicker than the horn break KO :mhwgood:

It definitely looks noticeably different time-wise - though I'm not sure if that's the knockdown being different or the second siege topple lasting for a shorter period.

I have some free time tommorrow, so I'll test this and post an update when I get the chance. Two siege topples with just the standard equipment is achievable with cannon opener + two uses of the roaming balista, so I'll hit it with those and then see if the dragonator can trigger a third topple.

[JPM岩]

How bad are players nowadays that they need to rely on the cannons to deal damage? Just hit it until it dies.