Lance needs a buff for Iceborne

[iamarawr]

Please just hear me out, it's not your typical "i'm not the best, but i think..." I understand that Lance is supposed to be a defensive weapon. I GET IT.

My problem with lance in ICEBORNE (it's caps for a reason) is that it's completely unfair vs. other weapons. A GS can hit an easy 500 on a monster with it's final combo. My Lance to Power guard to power thrust approximates 60 damage (a bit more on tenderized). Seems a little off, no?

"But OP, you're MEANT to be a defensive weapon, you shouldn't worry about dealing damage!!!! Noobface"

Well that's all well and great, if my main weapon is a "super defensive shield-wall weapon" why is it that Rajang can still hit me for half my health when he's enraged with red arms? I get that it only happens when he REALLY wants to hurt you, but as a "PURE DEFENSIVE BASED WEAPON" i shouldn't be taking that much damage. What's the point of running a really bad offensive weapon, if only for it's defensive advantages to be completely negated?

"But OP, you just need to learn how to evade the moves instead of blocking!!! Noob"

Then why even give me a huge ass shield to lug around? If I wanted to play the evade game, I'd choose one of the other 13 weapons. (12 if you include gunlance, which I do, since it has *relatively* the same defensive capabilities as a lance).

My point is that you can't tell me I'm a tank, in a game that has no dedicated healer class, then hit me for half my health in one move through a block. I ran 5/5 guard, guard up, 7/7 defense boost, health regen, and the rest. No, I don't have health augment on my lance, as I'm not MR100+. But I don't think there should be a need to reach a certain rank for a weapon to fulfill it's purpose.

I go lance to tank, not to get whupped on through my guard. I go LS to deal damage, not to tank.

I'm sorry, but in my mediocre 250+ hours of straight lance play, I'm confident in saying that Lance either needs a SMALL damage boost (even 10% would be game changing) or it needs a MASSIVE defense buff, that allows it to truly TANK ANY monsters moves. I'm not saying they shouldn't take any chip damage, or no damage, but I definitely shouldn't get slaughtered through my guards.

[Popcorn]

...lance was super OP in the garuga challenge arena, and it was one of those "crappy sets" pplz be talking bout

[iamarawr]

@Vaisnac Yeah, I get that. But outside of ti's niche market, what does the lance actually bring to the table? It feels like it's a tank, but then can't take damage. A LS, GS, HBG, CB played properly feel strong. But even if you play them wrong, you can accomplish the same thing lance does in about the same time. And I'm talking an average LS/GS/HBG/CB vs a competent Lance

[Greb]

Lance used to be fun to use in High Rank but now it kind of relies on nailing perfect blocks, triggering Offensive Guard, and using Counter Clutch intelligently and not spamming it so you get killed because you countered the first hit in a monsters combo instead of their last, etc.

It's powerful but it feels like it has a really rigid playstyle compared to other weapons. You can absolutely dodge with your shield up, keep the pressure on monsters, stab them harass them tank all of their attacks, counter to keep them tenderised, but the damage does suffer a little bit, yeah. You feel like a heavily armoured knight wielding a butter knife or something lol.

I'm by no means a Lance expert but I moved to using a Lance after some Hammer time and the difference in mobility and damage is pretty extreme. However you do get that big juicy shield gives you a huge advantage, it just doesn't feel as huge of as an advantage than it was in High Rank.

Seeing how the Sword and Shield just got a buff to make it compare to Dual Blades for DPS rushing in some cases, there's gotta be some space for a Lance to get a bit of a buff. I don't want them to make it so anyone can pick up a Lance and wreck with it, there needs to be a skill ceiling to achieve before you can, but it would be nice if they got some buffs, yeah. I'm waiting for Safi'Jiiva to drop before fully deciding if keeping a Lance around for randomly using is worth it though...at the moment, everything else is just much more appealing lol.

I've seen good chunks of damage, poking like 120 - 120 - 160 etc fairly rapidly and the rare moments you can do a joust charge against a tenderised and immobilised monster. It definitely has its moments for great DPS and just nice satisfying hits, but those moments are usually really fleeting especially compared to other weapons, which really makes it feel lackluster.

Weapons aren't really designed to be balanced around each other though, more about the users personal choice and what they enjoy. It would be nice if every weapon was as lethal as a Greatsword or as easy as a Heavy Bowgun, but I guess achieving that would be really hard for them to do, lol.

Weapon is currently Rank 12 in popularity according to Wyverians. I guess Hunting Horn is 14 as usual...any idea what 13 is?

[Jordnski]

Originally posted by Greb:

Lance used to be fun to use in High Rank but now it kind of relies on nailing perfect blocks, triggering Offensive Guard, and using Counter Clutch intelligently and not spamming it so you get killed because you countered the first hit in a monsters combo instead of their last, etc.

It's powerful but it feels like it has a really rigid playstyle compared to other weapons. You can absolutely dodge with your shield up, keep the pressure on monsters, stab them harass them tank all of their attacks, counter to keep them tenderised, but the damage does suffer a little bit, yeah.

I'm by no means a Lance expert but I moved to using a Lance after some Hammer time and the difference in mobility and damage is pretty extreme. However you do get that big juicy shield gives you a huge advantage, it just doesn't feel as huge of as an advantage than it was in High Rank.

Seeing how the Sword and Shield just got a buff to make it compare to Dual Blades for DPS rushing in some cases, there's gotta be some space for a Lance to get a bit of a buff. I don't want them to make it so anyone can pick up a Lance and wreck with it, there needs to be a skill ceiling to achieve before you can, but it would be nice if they got some buffs, yeah. I'm waiting for Safi'Jiiva to drop before fully deciding if keeping a Lance around for randomly using is worth it though...at the moment, everything else is just much more appealing lol.

Weapon is currently Rank 12 in popularity according to Wyverians. I guess Hunting Horn is 14 as usual...any idea what 13 is?

Uhh, Lance is a heavy set weapon, large shield and spear... what do you want to flail around like dual sword users? Yes lance is ment to be Ridge reliable and tanky, if you dont play the weapon right, it's not going to feel right in the first place, don't make a weapon something that it should not be.

[Popcorn]

Originally posted by iamarawr:

@Vaisnac Yeah, I get that. But outside of ti's niche market, what does the lance actually bring to the table? It feels like it's a tank, but then can't take damage. A LS, GS, HBG, CB played properly feel strong. But even if you play them wrong, you can accomplish the same thing lance does in about the same time. And I'm talking an average LS/GS/HBG/CB vs a competent Lance

Its less of a stereotypical tank and more of a counter tank, as in the shield is just there to deflect a little to no dmg.
Tanking moves would usually go along with the skill called guard up, making moves a little easier to tank.
Rather than going for def boost, go crit eye or elemental up (as in watever wpm element ur going) as it will definitely help the dmg

In the arena, i was hitting yian garuga 100s, but that set also had offesive moves whilst having guard up ie offensive guard, water attk up

[Greb]

Originally posted by The Badassitude:

Uhh, Lance is a heavy set weapon, large shield and spear... what do you want to flail around like dual sword users? Yes lance is ment to be Ridge reliable and tanky, if you dont play the weapon right, it's not going to feel right in the first place, don't make a weapon something that it should not be.

Mobility with a Lance is actually fine, by the way. Joust charging, jumping, sweeps, dodging with your shield up or just hopping around, especially with Evade Extender, are good mobility options. It doesn't need the mobility of a Hammer to avoid attacks because it has a big shield and blocking is important to its playstyle now too, etc.

Gripes are mostly about good consistent damage being so tryhardy to achieve compared to other weapons, honestly.

[iamarawr]

Again, even through a perfect counter block, you still take damage. What's the point of me learning how to counter something perfectly if it's still going to hurt me? In that case, I might as well run one of the other weapons and just roll out of the way.

My current issue with Lance is that they won't allow it to fulfill it's purpose unless you're at end end end game. That's like saying you can't play tank in a game until you're max level with 500+ hours grinding behind you.

[Jordnski]

Originally posted by Vaisnac:

Originally posted by iamarawr:

@Vaisnac Yeah, I get that. But outside of ti's niche market, what does the lance actually bring to the table? It feels like it's a tank, but then can't take damage. A LS, GS, HBG, CB played properly feel strong. But even if you play them wrong, you can accomplish the same thing lance does in about the same time. And I'm talking an average LS/GS/HBG/CB vs a competent Lance

Its less of a stereotypical tank and more of a counter tank, as in the shield is just there to deflect a little to no dmg.
Tanking moves would usually go along with the skill called guard up, making moves a little easier to tank.
Rather than going for def boost, go crit eye or elemental up (as in watever wpm element ur going) as it will definitely help the dmg

In the arena, i was hitting yian garuga 100s, but that set also had offesive moves whilst having guard up ie offensive guard, water attk up

Errr guard up makes moves otherwise where impossible to guard, actually possible to guard...it doesn't do more than that, your ability to take hits relies on Guard level and shield level as Lance being the highest level of shield and guard, and even higher with Guard +5 you can literally block anything without chip damage, if you take any damage with a lance with guard up + guard 5 you obviously screwed up your positioning, or you slid into aoe damage or evironmental damage or took blight damage.

[iamarawr]

@Greb Mobility with lance is NOT fine. I don't know what world you're living in, but one guard hop + 2 hops is NOT enough for the higher end MR monsters. There's a reason it's one of (if not THE) lowest played weapon in the game. I haven't checked the stats recently, but I doubt they've changed.

I may have only played 250 hours, but I've PRACTICED hopping and guard hopping. I can guard hop through a Shara laser wall, yet it STILL takes half my health. Again I say; why say I'm a tank, then take away my ability to survive? It has the longest sheathe time, but I pretty much HAVE to sheathe after a move like that, unless I have my Palico running Vigorwasp, or I want to die.

[lexilogo]

Lance is actually extremely strong. To explain:

Originally posted by iamarawr:

My problem with lance in ICEBORNE (it's caps for a reason) is that it's completely unfair vs. other weapons. A GS can hit an easy 500 on a monster with it's final combo. My Lance to Power guard to power thrust approximates 60 damage (a bit more on tenderized). Seems a little off, no?

Actually, it's fine.

Greatsword is the most bursty weapon in the entire game, it gets the highest Motion Values (the number that makes certain moves hit harder than other moves) in the whole game.

The balancing factor for Greatsword is that you can't TCS constantly. Not only do you need a big window to pull one off, but after pulling one off you're vunerable and need to back off to set up your next TCS. Skilled GS players will maximise this and can make getting back-to-back TCSes look pretty easy, but even at its most optimal TCSes aren't that frequent.

Lance is the total opposite, it's the most consistent weapon in the entire game. Lance has horrible motion values but is excellent at dealing lots of hits extremely frequently. A good Lance player will spend pretty much the entire hunt right in a monster's face and never stop stabbing them.


So yes, Lance's maxed power thrust is extremely weak, but you aren't even really supposed to be going for maxed power thrusts in the first place. Your triple high thrust + reset combo deals consistent DPS and is extremely easy to land for whole hunts.

I would also like to note that your estimates of Lance damage (to be fair, the same goes for your estimates of GS damage too) are pretty underwhelming. Endgame lance builds are close to jaw-dropping in their damage outputs sometimes.


As for Lance's defensive game, Master Rank has significantly changed how Lance works. In HR just guarding monster attacks was totally sufficient but in MR you are expected to know your moveset better.

Lance has two main advantages that still make it the best defensive weapon even in IB that you seem to have missed:

Originally posted by iamarawr:

"But OP, you just need to learn how to evade the moves instead of blocking!!! Noob"

There are some moves that you NEED to evade instead of blocking, but that's generally rare, and in most situations the evade/block conundrum is a false dichotomy for Lance.

Lance has access to Guard Dashing meaning you can block AND evade at the same time. You don't need to choose.

Secondly, for attacks that deal a lot of damage through shield you can't really get out of the way of with sidesteps, you have access to Power Guard which offers far better damage negation than regular guarding, 360 degrees of protection, and inherent Guard Up.

So yes, regular blocking is much worse in Iceborne than it was in basegame, but Lance's blocking options don't end with the regular block and TBH I think it's really important that Lance needs to use alternate moves in Master Rank instead of just blocking to dissuade the popular conception of it being a "noob weapon".

Originally posted by iamarawr:

No, I don't have health augment on my lance, as I'm not MR100+. But I don't think there should be a need to reach a certain rank for a weapon to fulfill it's purpose.

Minor extra note here, getting to MR100 isn't actually necessary for all health regen augments, R10 weapons can access them prior to MR100.

Originally posted by iamarawr:

@Greb Mobility with lance is NOT fine. I don't know what world you're living in, but one guard hop + 2 hops is NOT enough for the higher end MR monsters. There's a reason it's one of (if not THE) lowest played weapon in the game. I haven't checked the stats recently, but I doubt they've changed.

I may have only played 250 hours, but I've PRACTICED hopping and guard hopping. I can guard hop through a Shara laser wall, yet it STILL takes half my health. Again I say; why say I'm a tank, then take away my ability to survive? It has the longest sheathe time, but I pretty much HAVE to sheathe after a move like that, unless I have my Palico running Vigorwasp, or I want to die.

Lowest played weapon in the game is Hunting Horn (trust me, I know) and it also isn't indicative of a weapon's actual power (trust me, I know).

Lance will always be an extremely unpopular weapon, despite being a common "crutch" for people to get through walls like Diablos because most people don't really enjoy the weapon's DPS rotation.

A Shara laser wall deleting half your health sounds wrong, are you using Vit3 on your builds? That's generally what happens to me when I take the laser head-on, not if it's been blocked.

[iamarawr]

@The Badassitude Try fighting Velkhana as lance without guard up. It's not impossible, true, but it's definitely not in reach of at least 90% of the population of lances.

[Jordnski]

Oh and i forgot, if an attack exceeds your amount of stamina pool, you'll also take damage.

[iamarawr]

@lexilogo again, why say "you're a tank" then say "you have to dodge". I'd just run a different weapon, one that can avoid all damage through a roll.

Yeah you can "dodge and block" at the same time, but if you're hit, you still take massive damage. How does that correlate to what should be the "strongest" tank weapon in the game?

[Jordnski]

Originally posted by iamarawr:

@The Badassitude Try fighting Velkhana as lance without guard up. It's not impossible, true, but it's definitely not in reach of at least 90% of the population of lances.

Why are you fight velk without guard up? do you not have it? if not compenstate with stamina relied skills such a consistution or stamina surge.

[iamarawr]

@The Badassitude Yeah, that's why even in guard, you keep moving, because you won't regen stamina otherwise if you just stand there. Even little left to rights on the left stick works.