Capcom should just stop showing weapon bloat values now

[Blade]

Okay for people who never knew this, weapons have bloat values and I genuinely hate them. Your 1680 raw GS isn't stronger than your 490 raw SnS. They both have the same 350 true raw. All weapons with the same true raw will generally have the same dps with optimal usage of a weapon. These are the bloat values according to the weapon.

Great Sword 4.8
Gunlance 2.3
Long Sword 3.3
Switch Axe 3.5
Sword & Shield 1.4
Charge Blade 3.6
Dual Blades 1.4
Insect Glaive 3.1
Hammer 5.2
Light Bowgun 1.3
Hunting Horn 4.2
Heavy Bowgun 1.5
Lance 2.3
Bow 1.2

Bloat values/modifier = true raw || 1680/1.4 = 350 || 490/1.4 = 350

Now for elemental damage it's simply bloat value divided by 10.

430 bloated fire element/10 = 43 true fire element.

Then the element damage is applied per hit of the weapon. The actual computation is quite complex and I will link videos that explain this in much more detail. But do note that YOU DO NOT do bonus 430 fire damage on a 430 fire elemental weapon or not even 43 fire dmg. But the simple rule is that fast hitting weapons will deal more elemental damage since they hit more and elemental damage occurs per hit. More hits = more elemental damage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l_Bzy2c3xc
https://youtu.be/8OGNIme10Yc

Alatreon now is forcing people to learn how the game actually works especially with elemental damage and having bloat values is hindering them already at this point. People are going in the fight with massively underpowered raw and elemental weapons because they see high damage numbers on their weapons without realizing that all of this is just bloated to make them look stronger. There is a mod that changes all bloat values to true values if you're interested or just do the math I guess if you want.
https://www.nexusmods.com/monsterhunterworld/mods/2459?tab=description

This mod is required by the True Damage mod.
https://www.nexusmods.com/monsterhunterworld/mods/1982?tab=description

For the Alatreon fight I would suggest bringing at least a 300 true raw weapon with at least 50 true element. It can be done with lower values if you're really good enough. If he starts in ice then fire is most effective, if he starts in fire then ice is most effective. In the Special Assignment he will always start in fire and in the event quests he will either start fire or ice depending on the name of the quest. "The Evening Star" is fire, "Dawn of the Death Star is Ice". You can only break the horns in Dragon mode and if you do break it he will revert back to his first form after a Judgement. At this point it's very easy to hit to weaken the Judgement if you have optimal weapon usage and knowledge of the fight. Bring fire/ice attack skill level 6 since that can greatly help in weakening him. Also Capcom has adjusted elemental values for each weapon for the Alatreon fight to make sure that every weapon is viable by lowering the values for slow hitting weapons like the GS or Hammer.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2166005288
https://twitter.com/MH_Canta/status/1282117546309832708

Alatreon is just a matter of learning how elemental damage works, bringing the right weapon and learning the fight. If you cant beat him then you're simply currently not good enough, go back and train some more or craft better gear to offset the mistakes you make. Try watching other runs of Alatreon to see which moves are punishable that you haven't known yet and record your own hunts to check which moves are hitting you the most and see if you can learn to avoid these mistakes in the future. If you want to become a better hunter then try some of the tips or if you just want to whine that the game is bad then go look for another game.

Enjoy one of my really bad hunts with Alatreon. Remember, when in doubt? USE ALL OF THE MAX POTIONS! That's part of being a prepared hunter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVnyNKi3-OQ

[Nerevar]

why dumb the game down further? some complexity and non straight informations are more interresting than "big sword does 100 dmg per swing" as the later even a moron can understand. the game doesnt need to be understandable by morons in the first place. as once you fokus on the lowest competitor in terms of playerskill you ruin the game experience for anyone who isnt on that level.

this also isnt the first game to do this actually. its not a new concept.

[Flori281]

Originally posted by JPM岩:

I mean, yes and no. The bloat is done to show that a hammer is technically stronger than a SnS, and give different thresholds of expectations of weapons. Just seeing how the community is rn, everyone would just pick up SnS or DBs, and never touch anything else, because theyd have the same numbers with slower swing speeds. Plus, the bloat isnt bad, it's accurate to "this weapon has higher raw than this" etc. Is it complicated? Yes. Does it still make perfect sense? Yes.

it does its job I would agree. But anyone with a brain would realize some things were hitting for less despite having the same numbers. The main reason I'm ok with removing bloats is because it makes comparing things easier and more accurate.

[Flori281]

Originally posted by Nerevar:

why dumb the game down further? some complexity and non straight informations are more interresting than "big sword does 100 dmg per swing" as the later even a moron can understand. the game doesnt need to be understandable by morons in the first place. as once you fokus on the lowest competitor in terms of playerskill you ruin the game experience for anyone who isnt on that level.

this also isnt the first game to do this actually. its not a new concept.

more interesting...how? this is literally just a multiplier. it doesn't dumb it down further either because you'd need a working brain to realize same number!= same damage across weapon types.

[Dex]

Originally posted by Nerevar:

non straight informations are more interresting than "big sword does 100 dmg per swing" as the later even a moron can understand. the game doesnt need to be understandable by morons in the first place.

Let me translate that into what you're really saying.

"complicated numbers are more interesting than making it straightforward so everyone can understand it. This game shouldn't be understandable by everyone."

Do you hear yourself? you're saying it should be pointlessly obtuse just for the sake of making it harder to understand.

[JPM岩]

Originally posted by Floridian281:

Originally posted by JPM岩:

I mean, yes and no. The bloat is done to show that a hammer is technically stronger than a SnS, and give different thresholds of expectations of weapons. Just seeing how the community is rn, everyone would just pick up SnS or DBs, and never touch anything else, because theyd have the same numbers with slower swing speeds. Plus, the bloat isnt bad, it's accurate to "this weapon has higher raw than this" etc. Is it complicated? Yes. Does it still make perfect sense? Yes.

it does its job I would agree. But anyone with a brain would realize some things were hitting for less despite having the same numbers. The main reason I'm ok with removing bloats is because it makes comparing things easier and more accurate.

Removing the bloat wont change the numbers youll see. A 350 SA will not be dealing 350 per swing,

[RustyRed]

Why did they bring in bloat values? It gives them more work to do. Why did they remove it? It gives them more work to do. Why did they bring it back in? It gives them more work to do.

You get the pattern right? Welcome to adulthood.

[ChaosFred]

The bloated number actually gives simple picture of "Damage per Hit" potential. It also easier to depict the "Slow weapon, fast weapon" term.

This been long around many RPG or other games and becomes standard rule, not only just MH series or alike. Instead, setting them the same number across weapons would possibly causing misunderstand for new players who thought that GS, Hammer and other slower weapons alike to be weaker than SnS or DB.

If DB and GS have same raw stats. You will have to notes weapon like this to others:
"GS is slow weapon that has bigger damage multiplier from the stat,
DB is fast weapon but has low damage multiplier from the stat" for people to understand the DPS and usage correctly.

Instead, if the bloated number is shown, you can simply notes players
"But GS is slow weapon, while DB is a fast weapon", much shorter and from this people can summarize their DPS and usage.
---
Just add: I agree with the other comment that instead changing the stats to raw. Showing motion values would be better actually. Can be done in hunter guide or training area.

[𝓇𝒾𝓃𝒶𝒶𝒶𝒶𝒶]

We're on pc so we don't have to ask capcom to do anything.
Search "True weapon damage values" on nexus and done.

[Blade]

Originally posted by Lumika:

We're on pc so we don't have to ask capcom to do anything.
Search "True weapon damage values" on nexus and done.

I have it linked on the original post if people want to use it.

[Yolo$wagger]

Originally posted by BANBARO:

Originally posted by Lumika:

We're on pc so we don't have to ask capcom to do anything.
Search "True weapon damage values" on nexus and done.

I have it linked on the original post if people want to use it.

Many thanks!

[Verto]

don't forget about the hitzones, if you're hitting grey numbers then it's also below 50℅ of the unbloated damage

[Chippawaffen]

Originally posted by BANBARO:

Alatreon now is forcing people to learn how the game actually works especially with elemental damage

For the Alatreon fight I would suggest bringing at least a 300 true raw weapon with at least 50 true element.


Alatreon is just a matter of learning how elemental damage works, bringing

laughs in HBG pierce builds doing 1:58 speedrun

[Zamus]

Originally posted by ChaosFred:

This been long around many RPG or other games and becomes standard rule, not only just MH series or alike.

I do not remeber a single game RPG, MMRPG, ARPG or otherwise that uses bloat values ever and by this I mean values that are absolutelly never used for the damage formula and are just for show, some follow the all weapons have the same damage range but obiously fast weapons deal less damage per hit strong weapond deal more damage per hit or they each has their own damage but that is the damage used by the damage formula and when you find a skill that add +10 attack it just straight adding +10 attack to your weapon, no need to multiply it by an arbitraty invisible multiplier especific to your weapon type.

[Tyroplax]

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[cyäegha]

bloat values were pretty much a series staple until portable turd
i mean, there was a general understanding that bigger number > burst / smaller number > DPS
not coincidentally the only other game/s that used true values instead of bloat values was X/X

realistically the utility of knowing the exact true raw value - to the average player - compared to the same increment in bloat value is zero as neither value is a true representation of the actual real-world damage output of the weapon
only the training pole will give you a reasonable approximation of real-world values instead of the bloat value abstraction / true raw value in a vacuum

people just like seeing big numbers and the bloat values are, by their nature, bigger
that the difference between bloat and true value is immaterial to the actual damage calculation makes this debate pointless