Weekly reminder that Behavior System needs a MAJOR OVERHAUL

[DB]

There is a reason why LOL 5x'd its player-base while Dota on march break had a declining trend of players. The average game experience as of a year ago feels worse than it ever did. The devs over complicate matchmaking and behavior systems that have repeatedly done more harm than good. As a consequence of not retaining players, queueing at certain times leads to insanely long queues in many regions, and suggestions from the community keep being ignored. Some intent is needed on making the core experience better, not adding tangential minigames. Marketing the game also more appropriately for the kind of prizes on tournaments also makes more sense, and not going silent for years while ignoring glaring issues the community raises. Yes there is a fear of smurfs but valve is already doing nothing about it. A yearly ban does NOT cut it. Moreover, high profile previously banned players like Mason are still playing the game and streaming it.


Implement significantly more harsh deterrents
Punishments currently are a complete joke. They dont deter nor do they even come close to any sort of reform. Taking away post game drops and coaching... seriously, does any player on earth care about this? ranked temp bans should be a thing, or forcing players to play 200 regular games to re access rank. 3 strikes and a temp ban should be the norm and a fourth being a permanent ban. Valves fear of smurfs and banning their toxic cash cows has made new players less likely to stick around and stifled the games growth at the peril of other players. Give players also a visible warning when their behavior is being reported at a high rate (textbox that cant be dismissed or something of the sort). This used to be a thing in DOTA, and is no longer. Also single draft was a fun game mode, now its dead since its the default LP mode. If you want players to go over a more painful experience, make them play a match at 0.5x speed.


Commends mean absolutely nothing, and there are no good incentives for behavior:
Solution. Rework commends into having meaning and impact. Implement a scaling behavior system visible to other players. Say 12k behavior score is the average, it is far too often you see toxic players in it, clearly there are better behaved players within 12k than others. So break the cap above 12k to lets say 20k BUT it gets progressively harder to mantain any score above 12k. You can tie higher BS to actual rewards players would be happy to recieve. If you give players one or two endorsement votes at the end of the match to use on players they enjoyed playing with you can generate a system where actual good behavior can stand out. To be in lets say 15k you'd be getting endorsed every other game, above 17k every game, some gradient like that.
The endorsement system similar to the Blizzard Overwatch and LOL was very effective, they have used it for more than 10 years. Endorsement level can be a visible medal, and should be rewarded when high. Currently 12k behavior means nothing now, too many toxic players on whats supposed to be the highest behavior bracket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mudd1HKKLWY


De-centivize knee jerk inaccurate reporting
With more accurate data you can make better decisions. Anyone that reports for EVERY CATEGORY altogether should have its reports ignored. Encourage players to report accurately. Thank players for using overwatch and notify them when action is taken. Spam reporters should be taken less seriously AND they should know about it. If a players report everyone in a match there is no credible reason to take them seriously for the next one unless they start reporting with intent. The current system gives the illusion of multiple reports and has some measures for spam reporting, however they simply take the first report at face value. Example, games where the enemy team stomps (and losses in genera) usually lead to cores being reported, you see this all the time in overwatch and is exacerbated by smurfs being able to ruin lower rank games. With cleaner data you can measure a trust factor on each player and more accurately determine if a set of reports should lead to action or not.

[Rabbit 🍌]

Clearly Valve aren't imputing as much love and care into dota as it deserve. It's a miracle that the game isn't just straigh up dying at this point.

[DB]

It kind of is, numbers trending down during March break right after a major patch is a bad sign. Ice frogs touch is missing, and again there is no focus on quality of games, just patchy initiatives that dont address root cause of issues.

[Topper Harley]

i agree with everything except having reports not taken seriously. ive had several games where i have reported all 4 of my team, they were not spam reports and there are that many toxic players now, its easy to find yourself in a game where 4 people are just griefing.

All reports should be checked, but if after that check its found that the report has been just for the sake of reporting, they should lose their privilege to report players for a set amount of time.

[Megatron]

i agree with you,everything you said is true and ive experienced same issue myself,this needs rework or either the game will die which is slowly going towards that.

[DB]

If you can pelase react, comment, upvote the github issues

https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Dota2-Gameplay/issues/25159
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Dota2-Gameplay/issues/24945

[Dinsdale]

Originally posted by DB:

If you can pelase react, comment, upvote the github issues

https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Dota2-Gameplay/issues/25159
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Dota2-Gameplay/issues/24945

Doesn't matter if you post this on the github repo, it comes out as a standard whine post and therefore ignored. Developers don't use their time reading threads that offers nothing, they won't even read past the first paragraph. The repo is mainly for tracking bugs.

Threads on the repo wont get ANY traction like this, it's not like here where you can trigger every crybaby playing the game.

Most likely as you post multiple threads it will be marked as spam.

There are ways of going about these things, you're just shooting yourself and your issues in the foot. You should take a hint when barely any of your open issues for the last 2 years have comments other than telling you that you need to git gud, which is a pretty good solution to your problem.

[no toy]

do not touch the current behavior system! its the best we ever had!

[DB]

Thanks for your very unhelpful advice. Yeah since you know the ways to go about these things please, enlighten us. other than a viral reddit thread this is the only way players can voice their concerns. Also if you havent figured out this isnt about skill at all. There are griefers at every point of the ladder

[Dinsdale]

Originally posted by DB:

Thanks for your very unhelpful advice. Yeah since you know the ways to go about these things please, enlighten us. other than a viral reddit thread this is the only way players can voice their concerns. Also if you havent figured out this isnt about skill at all. There are griefers at every point of the ladder

No point in enlightening you, as with other people spamming these threads you wont learn. Everything is about skill in this game, the better you are the less reports you get and you get to play in a bracket where player dont report others for fun. But you do you, that 7000 BS score of yours is just going to get worse.

[DB]

No it wont, but it also doesnt call for LP on 0 reports. that makes absolutely no sense. All you litearlly do is go through post to sabotage btw im not "spamming the threads" there been 2. On the other hand seeing your post history I see that this is all you do. I see now that all you project is the sadness that despite you spamming every thread with your ideas no one listens to them. Take your self-righteous opinion somewhere else

[Dinsdale]

Originally posted by DB:

No it wont, but it also doesnt call for LP on 0 reports. that makes absolutely no sense. All you litearlly do is go through post to sabotage btw im not "spamming the threads" there been 2. On the other hand seeing your post history I see that this is all you do. I see now that all you project is the sadness that despite you spamming every thread with your ideas no one listens to them. Take your self-righteous opinion somewhere else

Take the whining somewhere else then. Otherwise im free to post in your threads and comment on them if I find them ignorant and just lack of common sense.

Not sure you have a clue what spamming is though judging from your comment. I dont care if the forum clowns listen to my ideas cuz I make fun of them, but there are sensible people on the forum who do and you're not among them. The definition of insanity is to try the same thing over and over and expect another result like you do on this forum and on the GitHub repo.

But again you do you, Valve wont fix BS for you. The excessive reports you get will continue.

[DB]

2 posts = spamming. Thats your definition great. And once again im not getting EXCESSIVE REPORTS the polar opposite. Im baffled at how you can be so dense and useless at the same time

[Sentient Entropy]

Personally this is just another reminder that the average person complaining about the behavior score system is blithely rude and doesn't know what they are talking about.

More reminders aren't really necessary though, there are already more than enough threads like that every day.

[DB]

Originally posted by Sentient Entropy:

Personally this is just another reminder that the average person complaining about the behavior score system is blithely rude and doesn't know what they are talking about.

More reminders aren't really necessary though, there are already more than enough threads like that every day.

Well the last person who just kept incessently putting down any thread criticizing existing systems just got banned. I can see why I came accross as rude, except that person went through and actively sabotaged conversations in bad faith. Personally its worth to state these systems make no sense. New players arent paired up with new players so for a lot of my friends that ive tried to introduce to the game it has been a horrific experience. Considering the profitability of dota i think its appropriate to put pressure where possible as a user to get better systems that affect overall game experience.

[DB]

Originally posted by Topper Harley:

i agree with everything except having reports not taken seriously. ive had several games where i have reported all 4 of my team, they were not spam reports and there are that many toxic players now, its easy to find yourself in a game where 4 people are just griefing.

All reports should be checked, but if after that check its found that the report has been just for the sake of reporting, they should lose their privilege to report players for a set amount of time.

All reports being reviewed is not realistic or reasonable... Even with AI i think that is a big challenge. However placing trust factors would be a way to patch this and curb the effect of report spammers. I may be wrong but the current way the spam reduction system works is by limiting the number of reports available to playerd that spam... that first person they report in a game gets the full penalty of a report, which makes no sense.

The ideal solution would be reworking the threshold for punishment for high confidence that a repeat offender is guilty and deliver harsher punishments (rank ban, temp ban, perma ban). 3 reports in 15 games can just as easily be noise. Thats 3 out of 135 playerd you interact with.