Why do people say timber doesn't scale well into late game?

[76561198195935737]

I often find myself fighting against timbers extremely difficult to kill that end up killing my team because of long fights, and sometimes I even lose a game solely because of an enemy timber. Why do people say timber is bad late game?

[M o t h a F l i p p i n]

Timbersaww scales badly into late game?
That's news to me, Im pretty sure its the opposite...

[Single Draft Dodger]

Perhaps you're confusing this with Timber is bad for high ground - which he kind of is due to lack of trees? I've not really heard this said - though that doesn't mean it hasn't been or isn't true.

[M o t h a F l i p p i n]

Originally posted by Funkadelic Jive Turkey:

Perhaps you're confusing this with Timber is bad for high ground - which he kind of is due to lack of trees? I've not really heard this said - though that doesn't mean it hasn't been or isn't true.

This would make sense, also when people start reaching their BKB's he kinda loses a little bit of his magic, however this quickly comesback as the BKB's get weaker

[thanos snap]

Originally posted by DC Óscar Ascenção:

Timbersaww scales badly into late game?
That's news to me, Im pretty sure its the opposite...

No, he does indeed scale badly into late game. He scales better than most spell based heroes, however even if almost all of his damage is pure, people still increase in health over time. Meaning that it will be harder and harder to kill them. Meanwhile the enemy carry will eventually just click on you and kill, while you are trying to zip around. Timbersaw does do really well with an Aghanims, bloodstone, etc, but eventually he will be unable to fight Medusa, Void, Spectre and pals.

[Single Draft Dodger]

Pyon this is true but he's a core and not a carry and the same can be said of Axe - yet nobody says he scales badly into late. Admittedly Axe has abilities that pierce BKB but when BKB is down to 5s Timber can wait that out and go to work.

Again, I'm not arguing saying he does indeed scale well, but it's unfair I think to say that "Timber cant 1v1 3 of the hardest carries in the game therefore he does not scale well".

[PepegaOgre]

Originally posted by Pyon Pyon Kyuu!~ <3:

Originally posted by DC Óscar Ascenção:

Timbersaww scales badly into late game?
That's news to me, Im pretty sure its the opposite...

No, he does indeed scale badly into late game. He scales better than most spell based heroes, however even if almost all of his damage is pure, people still increase in health over time. Meaning that it will be harder and harder to kill them. Meanwhile the enemy carry will eventually just click on you and kill, while you are trying to zip around. Timbersaw does do really well with an Aghanims, bloodstone, etc, but eventually he will be unable to fight Medusa, Void, Spectre and pals.

As a guy who spams/use to spam timber almost every game in rmm, and with ~330 games on timber, I feel like I can correct you on some of the things you said.

The thing with timber is he has a high skill cap, since he is entirely a skill based hero. If you miss Chakrams/chains, your effectiveness into the lategame will obviously decrease.

In 6.83, timber was very difficult to play into the lategame, since troll/sniper could hit you 10000 times/from a long range, and since physical dps carries scale way better into the lategame than most, if not any other kind of hero, lategame timber was limited as to what he can do unless you got the carry by himself/wrap around.

In 6.84, Spell based caster heroes, especially timber, are way better as they enter the lategame. This is due to a couple of factors:
1.New items-Octerine Core is amazing as timber can keep out chakram and get a passive 150 hp regen per second if you have 2 chakrams on a single hero, 300 if on 2, etc. This item also reduces his cooldowns. One problem I had with timber in 6.83 is that by the time I threw out chakram and pulled it back, it would have 1 or 2 secs left on the cd. With Core, it usually has 0 downtime compared to last patch. Also, I cannot tell you how many times I just barely died cause timber chain was on 1 sec cd. Having it to 3 insted or 4 sec cd is huge since it improves your mobility even more, and in a meta that is heavely influenced by movement (hence the reason for the axe culling blade nerf), 1 second can potentially be game changing.

2.Undying is considered one of the most op heroes in the meta so far. That being said, and hero who is strong against the "strongest" hero in the meta has a huge advantage. Timber is strong due to whirling death making dirge a lot squishier, and that timber chain is a very good escape against the tombstone. This not only makes timber a lot better in the lategame, assuming dirge will be picked a lot, it also makes timber a better hero choice in general.

3. You mentioned heroes like spec and dusa being strong lategame heroes and will eventually destroy timber. From my previous experiences against those heroes, timber excells against them in all portions of the game, each for there own reasons. Dusa is basically a huge indestructable/somewhat immobile fortress that is very strong if you get within range. double chakram on an immobile hero will deal a lot of dmg to her, draining all her mana fast, aswell as slowing hero, making her even more immobile. Spec is strong against most heroes due to her being able to chase her enemies by slowing her enemies and making herself faster with dagger, and building tank/dmg items allows her to chase/stay in the middle of the fight for a long time. Timber, being a naturally tanky hero makes him able to throw chakram onto himself, and spec being a meele hero, has to stay in the chakram in order to hit timber. This allows timber to kite spec for a long time, or just even allowing him to escape. Void isnt that strong of a hero in general as long as you dont group up. This is especially true for timber, as putting chakrams on whoever void is trying to focus in chrono, and with void usually having MoM active, will make him have to switch targets, reducing his overall effectiveness in chrono. If void just jumps in without using chrono, and just starts hitting on you, well, this just isnt something a void will want to do. You usually will have a hero with a disable to give you some space to chain out/re initiate. Assuming you dont have a hero with a disable, which is very uncommon, then there are only a very select few ammount of heroes that can actually survive this, assuming its a farmed lategame void.

The only reason timber isnt constantly picked in competitive matches for 2 reasons.

1.Despite the ways I just mentioned above about how timber is a strong lategame hero, a lack of a disable on any hero in general will make him weaker in the lategame no matter what, since disables are essential in the latter stages of the game. This also allows enemies to just tp out right infront of you if you are alone trying to solo kill someone, and you cant do anything about it if you dont have enough burst to 1 shot an enemy with all your abilities, so unless its a support or an underfarmed carry, solo killing is very difficult. Although this is a negative, I've seen very few people do this, since most usually just try and run, which almost never works, unless they are running and they have their team close by.

2.He is litterally a creep with an armor buff/creep with an armor buff that can toss himself to a nearby tree for the early parts of the laning stage. That being said, its very easy for a ranged support to harras/push him out of lane and/or xp range. Usually offlane heroes such as Dark Seer, Batrider, and Axe have an easy way to transition into the jungle if the offlane doesnt work out for them. Timber can go to the jungle, but it is very inefficient. You usually get a value point in armor at lvl 1 so you can increase your survivablility due to your 0 armor. If you get zones out at lvl 1, the jungle is a very bad place to go, since all you can do is rightclick creeps. If you get lvl 2 or 3, you can get 1/2 lvls in chain to help, but your 400 manapool allows for only about 5 or 6 chains, which is about 500/600 dmg, which can only get you 1 or 2 hard camps, and a few more easy camps, so you are usually forced to stay in lane, potentially out of xp range, and getting little to no gold. All of this shows how weak of a laner he is. Untill you get lvl 5 or 6 (5 if your mid ganks, 6 also requires mid to gank unless you are doing well in lane) timber can then try and get a few kills, which can help make up for you not getting any gold in lane. If the enemy recognizes that, lets say you are the timber, and you are doing well in lane, and the enemy has shut down your carry and mid, they will most likely start to 5 man and push towers. Depending on the enemy/allied lineup, being able to carry your team in this position as timber, or as any offlaner in general, will be difficult.

As you can see, timber, if played correctly, is an amazing lategame hero. The main problem is getting to the lategame with that you need.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, while playing timber, you dont play as a frontline tank. You usually stay in the back, wait for the enemy to initiate, then you jump in and tank as a counter initiation. If you are far ahead and the enemy has little farm, then you can play as the front line tank people usually think timber is.

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ＣＯＮＳ：Ｌａｃｋｓ　ｄｉｓａｂｌｅ，　ｗｅａｋ　ｉｎ　ｌａｎｅ　ｕｎｔｉｌｌ　ｌｖｌ　５　ｏｒ　６，　ｍａｋｉｎｇ　ｒｅａｃｈｉｎｇ　ｌａｔｅｇａｍｅ　ｈａｒｄ．

[vinh]

Originally posted by RetartGimpOgre:

Originally posted by Pyon Pyon Kyuu!~ <3:

No, he does indeed scale badly into late game. He scales better than most spell based heroes, however even if almost all of his damage is pure, people still increase in health over time. Meaning that it will be harder and harder to kill them. Meanwhile the enemy carry will eventually just click on you and kill, while you are trying to zip around. Timbersaw does do really well with an Aghanims, bloodstone, etc, but eventually he will be unable to fight Medusa, Void, Spectre and pals.

As a guy who spams/use to spam timber almost every game in rmm, and with ~330 games on timber, I feel like I can correct you on some of the things you said.

The thing with timber is he has a high skill cap, since he is entirely a skill based hero. If you miss Chakrams/chains, your effectiveness into the lategame will obviously decrease.

In 6.83, timber was very difficult to play into the lategame, since troll/sniper could hit you 10000 times/from a long range, and since physical dps carries scale way better into the lategame than most, if not any other kind of hero, lategame timber was limited as to what he can do unless you got the carry by himself/wrap around.

In 6.84, Spell based caster heroes, especially timber, are way better as they enter the lategame. This is due to a couple of factors:
1.New items-Octerine Core is amazing as timber can keep out chakram and get a passive 150 hp regen per second if you have 2 chakrams on a single hero, 300 if on 2, etc. This item also reduces his cooldowns. One problem I had with timber in 6.83 is that by the time I threw out chakram and pulled it back, it would have 1 or 2 secs left on the cd. With Core, it usually has 0 downtime compared to last patch. Also, I cannot tell you how many times I just barely died cause timber chain was on 1 sec cd. Having it to 3 insted or 4 sec cd is huge since it improves your mobility even more, and in a meta that is heavely influenced by movement (hence the reason for the axe culling blade nerf), 1 second can potentially be game changing.

2.Undying is considered one of the most op heroes in the meta so far. That being said, and hero who is strong against the "strongest" hero in the meta has a huge advantage. Timber is strong due to whirling death making dirge a lot squishier, and that timber chain is a very good escape against the tombstone. This not only makes timber a lot better in the lategame, assuming dirge will be picked a lot, it also makes timber a better hero choice in general.

3. You mentioned heroes like spec and dusa being strong lategame heroes and will eventually destroy timber. From my previous experiences against those heroes, timber excells against them in all portions of the game, each for there own reasons. Dusa is basically a huge indestructable/somewhat immobile fortress that is very strong if you get within range. double chakram on an immobile hero will deal a lot of dmg to her, draining all her mana fast, aswell as slowing hero, making her even more immobile. Spec is strong against most heroes due to her being able to chase her enemies by slowing her enemies and making herself faster with dagger, and building tank/dmg items allows her to chase/stay in the middle of the fight for a long time. Timber, being a naturally tanky hero makes him able to throw chakram onto himself, and spec being a meele hero, has to stay in the chakram in order to hit timber. This allows timber to kite spec for a long time, or just even allowing him to escape. Void isnt that strong of a hero in general as long as you dont group up. This is especially true for timber, as putting chakrams on whoever void is trying to focus in chrono, and with void usually having MoM active, will make him have to switch targets, reducing his overall effectiveness in chrono. If void just jumps in without using chrono, and just starts hitting on you, well, this just isnt something a void will want to do. You usually will have a hero with a disable to give you some space to chain out/re initiate. Assuming you dont have a hero with a disable, which is very uncommon, then there are only a very select few ammount of heroes that can actually survive this, assuming its a farmed lategame void.

The only reason timber isnt constantly picked in competitive matches for 2 reasons.

1.Despite the ways I just mentioned above about how timber is a strong lategame hero, a lack of a disable on any hero in general will make him weaker in the lategame no matter what, since disables are essential in the latter stages of the game. This also allows enemies to just tp out right infront of you if you are alone trying to solo kill someone, and you cant do anything about it if you dont have enough burst to 1 shot an enemy with all your abilities, so unless its a support or an underfarmed carry, solo killing is very difficult. Although this is a negative, I've seen very few people do this, since most usually just try and run, which almost never works, unless they are running and they have their team close by.

2.He is litterally a creep with an armor buff/creep with an armor buff that can toss himself to a nearby tree for the early parts of the laning stage. That being said, its very easy for a ranged support to harras/push him out of lane and/or xp range. Usually offlane heroes such as Dark Seer, Batrider, and Axe have an easy way to transition into the jungle if the offlane doesnt work out for them. Timber can go to the jungle, but it is very inefficient. You usually get a value point in armor at lvl 1 so you can increase your survivablility due to your 0 armor. If you get zones out at lvl 1, the jungle is a very bad place to go, since all you can do is rightclick creeps. If you get lvl 2 or 3, you can get 1/2 lvls in chain to help, but your 400 manapool allows for only about 5 or 6 chains, which is about 500/600 dmg, which can only get you 1 or 2 hard camps, and a few more easy camps, so you are usually forced to stay in lane, potentially out of xp range, and getting little to no gold. All of this shows how weak of a laner he is. Untill you get lvl 5 or 6 (5 if your mid ganks, 6 also requires mid to gank unless you are doing well in lane) timber can then try and get a few kills, which can help make up for you not getting any gold in lane. If the enemy recognizes that, lets say you are the timber, and you are doing well in lane, and the enemy has shut down your carry and mid, they will most likely start to 5 man and push towers. Depending on the enemy/allied lineup, being able to carry your team in this position as timber, or as any offlaner in general, will be difficult.

As you can see, timber, if played correctly, is an amazing lategame hero. The main problem is getting to the lategame with that you need.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, while playing timber, you dont play as a frontline tank. You usually stay in the back, wait for the enemy to initiate, then you jump in and tank as a counter initiation. If you are far ahead and the enemy has little farm, then you can play as the front line tank people usually think timber is.

ＴＬ；ＤＲ：Ｔｉｍｂｅｒ　Ｐｒｏｓ／Ｃｏｎｓ　ｉｎ　６．８４：
ＰＲＯＳ：Ｈｉｇｈ　ＤＰＳ，　ｌｉｍｉｔｓ　ｅｎｅｍｙ　ｃａｒｒｉｅｓ　ｐｏｔｅｎｔｉａｌ，　ｅｘｃｅｌｌｓ　ａｔ　ｋｉｔｉｎｇ，　ｇｏｏｄ　ｓｕｓｔａｉｎ　ｉｎ　ｌａｔｅｇａｍｅ，　ｈｉｓ　ｃｏｕｎｔｅｒｓ　ｇｏｔ　ｎｅｒｆｅｄ．
ＣＯＮＳ：Ｌａｃｋｓ　ｄｉｓａｂｌｅ，　ｗｅａｋ　ｉｎ　ｌａｎｅ　ｕｎｔｉｌｌ　ｌｖｌ　５　ｏｒ　６，　ｍａｋｉｎｇ　ｒｅａｃｈｉｎｇ　ｌａｔｅｇａｍｅ　ｈａｒｄ．

thanks for tldr

[corbet]

if he is higher leveld and more gold any one can be strong late game. but a level 25 timbersaw vs level 25 carries, the carries would win, no questions asked. assuming they are all fully built.

[corbet]

for example can timbersaw fight meepo late game when meepo has more attack damage and attack speed than each hero on yoru team combined? no.

it's not really that timber isn't great, it's just that there is many things much better.

[SirSanjiSlacks]

Originally posted by fluff puff:

for example can timbersaw fight meepo late game when meepo has more attack damage and attack speed than each hero on yoru team combined? no.

it's not really that timber isn't great, it's just that there is many things much better.

Actually timber can fight a meepo, at any point throughout the game except for <5-6. (Assuming both are fairly even in farm, or even if Meepo has more farm, its still possible). Timber with Bloodstone, Aghanims, Orchine, and I guess heart? would be extremely powerful.

[Single Draft Dodger]

@RetartGimpOgre:
You will not mess with Void during chrono because presumably he has BKB. If Void doesn't have a BKB either it's cause he is an idiot and the game is ez4u or he is roflstomping you so hard he doesn't care what you throw at him.

As a Spectre spammer (500+ games), Timber is massively annoying for a large portion of the game and she can't kill him by herself due to his mobility and chakrams, this is true. However if you wan't to talk lategame or even late midgame she will diffusal you to help with the chase, walk through chakram and not care cause if you're close you'll probably hurt more than she will after right click, radiance burn, and her 2 passives. If you want to get ultra late game then one of 2 things will happen:
1) You have annoyed her enough throughout the match that she haunts directly on you, abyssals you, pops manta and kills you.
2) She will just ignore your attempts to harass her and\or run away from her and just take your base.

How Medusa deals with Timber I can't say.

Still it's kind of stupid to compare a mid-game dominating core like Timber to hard carries that go ultra-late. The other thing is most people outside the deepest trench know that line ups that are too greedy don't work - Void, Dusa, Spectre, Naga, Ag Morph lineup is not going to win you games.

Edit: Timber is actually pretty good against Meepo unless Meep has snowballed out of control to the point that nobody is good against Meepo. Meepo is also not a very hard carry nor does he scale particularly well. Meepo carries by snowballing in both farm and levels and bullying that advantage.

[Exceptional]

Originally posted by Pyon Pyon Kyuu!~ <3:

Originally posted by DC Óscar Ascenção:

Timbersaww scales badly into late game?
That's news to me, Im pretty sure its the opposite...

No, he does indeed scale badly into late game. He scales better than most spell based heroes, however even if almost all of his damage is pure, people still increase in health over time. Meaning that it will be harder and harder to kill them. Meanwhile the enemy carry will eventually just click on you and kill, while you are trying to zip around. Timbersaw does do really well with an Aghanims, bloodstone, etc, but eventually he will be unable to fight Medusa, Void, Spectre and pals.

how he scale badly in late game?He is super tanky and deal a lot of dmg+have a stats debuff.

only bad in bad player hand.

[Mister-E]

Originally posted by Funkadelic Jive Turkey:

@RetartGimpOgre:
You will not mess with Void during chrono because presumably he has BKB. If Void doesn't have a BKB either it's cause he is an idiot and the game is ez4u or he is roflstomping you so hard he doesn't care what you throw at him.

As a Spectre spammer (500+ games), Timber is massively annoying for a large portion of the game and she can't kill him by herself due to his mobility and chakrams, this is true. However if you wan't to talk lategame or even late midgame she will diffusal you to help with the chase, walk through chakram and not care cause if you're close you'll probably hurt more than she will after right click, radiance burn, and her 2 passives. If you want to get ultra late game then one of 2 things will happen:
1) You have annoyed her enough throughout the match that she haunts directly on you, abyssals you, pops manta and kills you.
2) She will just ignore your attempts to harass her and\or run away from her and just take your base.

How Medusa deals with Timber I can't say.

Still it's kind of stupid to compare a mid-game dominating core like Timber to hard carries that go ultra-late. The other thing is most people outside the deepest trench know that line ups that are too greedy don't work - Void, Dusa, Spectre, Naga, Ag Morph lineup is not going to win you games.

Edit: Timber is actually pretty good against Meepo unless Meep has snowballed out of control to the point that nobody is good against Meepo. Meepo is also not a very hard carry nor does he scale particularly well. Meepo carries by snowballing in both farm and levels and bullying that advantage.

Timber will scale really well into late game provided he's not hard countered, the big problem with him is he's a super hard dps caster, versus some heroes that are really heavy hitting in the right click department:
windranger, troll, PA, Sven, Sniper

and quite a few of those have a BKB core... rendering timber useless while they either kill him or run roughshod over his team.

[Exceptional]

Originally posted by Mister-E:

Originally posted by Funkadelic Jive Turkey:

@RetartGimpOgre:
You will not mess with Void during chrono because presumably he has BKB. If Void doesn't have a BKB either it's cause he is an idiot and the game is ez4u or he is roflstomping you so hard he doesn't care what you throw at him.

As a Spectre spammer (500+ games), Timber is massively annoying for a large portion of the game and she can't kill him by herself due to his mobility and chakrams, this is true. However if you wan't to talk lategame or even late midgame she will diffusal you to help with the chase, walk through chakram and not care cause if you're close you'll probably hurt more than she will after right click, radiance burn, and her 2 passives. If you want to get ultra late game then one of 2 things will happen:
1) You have annoyed her enough throughout the match that she haunts directly on you, abyssals you, pops manta and kills you.
2) She will just ignore your attempts to harass her and\or run away from her and just take your base.

How Medusa deals with Timber I can't say.

Still it's kind of stupid to compare a mid-game dominating core like Timber to hard carries that go ultra-late. The other thing is most people outside the deepest trench know that line ups that are too greedy don't work - Void, Dusa, Spectre, Naga, Ag Morph lineup is not going to win you games.

Edit: Timber is actually pretty good against Meepo unless Meep has snowballed out of control to the point that nobody is good against Meepo. Meepo is also not a very hard carry nor does he scale particularly well. Meepo carries by snowballing in both farm and levels and bullying that advantage.

Timber will scale really well into late game provided he's not hard countered, the big problem with him is he's a super hard dps caster, versus some heroes that are really heavy hitting in the right click department:
windranger, troll, PA, Sven, Sniper

and quite a few of those have a BKB core... rendering timber useless while they either kill him or run roughshod over his team.

dude.How they kill timber?Explain me how timber is easy to kill for a rightclick?He have so much armor in the current patch,try to kill a timber with the greave,shivas and his passive(add heaven for the lulz),with your right click...He is hard to kill.

[A Street Sweeper]

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what scaling poorly into the late game means here. I agree he scales better than he ever has with 6.84 and opinions on him will start to change. Talking pre-6.84 he scaled badly. For me this just means that he reaches peak effectiveness much earlier than the late game. It's not that he is bad in late game, it's just that in the mid game with any sort of level advantage he is an absolute terror.

For example, most of the game he would make troll warlord his ♥♥♥♥♥, but in the very late game all troll would need would be to get close enough for one lucky bash and it's gg for timber. Also, bkbs make him almost irrelevant for their duration.