Invoker high APM gradually causes input delay

[teleamachus]

i've had this problem for a few years now, made multiple mosts on many websites and contacted steam support as well as emailed valve directly, and never gotten any headway on resolving this problem, so i'm posting it again to see if anyone has any suggestions

what happens is quite simple, and much like the title of this discussion reads: when i play invoker, as the game progresses and my invoke cooldown is reduced, and spells need to be invoked more quickly, or as i simply cycle through orbs, the game will begin to delay my inputs, sometimes up to about half a second between inputs. this makes a hero like invoker unplayable, where if you need to use five abilities to cast one spell (three elements, one invoke, and the spell cast), you can't do it quickly at all. i can play invoker slowly, but it's obviously much less impactful and more difficult

my only theories that i have right now are that i am either activating some kind of anti-cheat measure that's intended to prevent scripts from casting combos for the player, or my hotkeys aren't being recognized by the game in a normal way. about my hotkeys, i use the numpad for my most used hotkeys, like items, abilities, stop, and move. i used to have to manually bind hotkeys to the alternate state of my numpad's hotkeys for when it was toggled on or off, because i use numlock as my stop key, and toggling the state of my numpad for a very long time made it impossible for me to play as the keys would register as their alternate hotkey (such as num7=home, num3=pg_dn). anyway, that did get fixed at some point, but this input delay issue was never fixed, despite multiple attempts at contacting the devs like i mentioned earlier

i stopped playing invoker much, just tried to play him again a few times recently and rediscovered this problem. i did used to experience this problem on other heroes like arc warden or meepo, but they haven't been problematic for me recently. i was going to message valve again but thought to try here first and see if anyone has any ideas on what i could try, or any specific person i could try to contact to see about getting this problem fixed

[☠ ௹ ☠ ௹ ☠]

Why do you think this is a valve/dota issue and not a computer/you issue? I can guess 50 different things that aren't related to valve/dota so just wondering why you are certain it is valve side?

2 easy ones are that you have a overheating cpu or gpu that causes delay in the button inputs not being able to handle them properly. You could be playing on wifi and/or have other ♥♥♥♥♥♥ connections to internet or a provider that isn't consistent (vpn users will see this issue as an example). And plenty others i dont feel like typing out with 0 information provided other than "I know it's valve's fault"

I almost know it isn't valve/dota issue because you are basically asserting you press buttons faster than all the pros that ever played these heroes. Because, I find it hard to believe valve would ignore pro complaints about button input lag for high APM (which is likely why they are ignoring you)

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

This kind of rigging causes many hero's abilities to be played out of sequence ruining the gameplay. Ever echo empty ground when a blink input was dropped?
Try the training polygon in arcade and see if it drops your inputs there. If you get it dropping when in a private lobby, it may be you needing a wired keyboard or something. If its because of internet issues, there is really no good fixes as you can't do anything about internet infrastructure.

[teleamachus]

引用自 Gørilla Møde：

Why do you think this is a valve/dota issue and not a computer/you issue? I can guess 50 different things that aren't related to valve/dota so just wondering why you are certain it is valve side?

2 easy ones are that you have a overheating cpu or gpu that causes delay in the button inputs not being able to handle them properly. You could be playing on wifi and/or have other ♥♥♥♥♥♥ connections to internet or a provider that isn't consistent (vpn users will see this issue as an example). And plenty others i dont feel like typing out with 0 information provided other than "I know it's valve's fault"

I almost know it isn't valve/dota issue because you are basically asserting you press buttons faster than all the pros that ever played these heroes. Because, I find it hard to believe valve would ignore pro complaints about button input lag for high APM (which is likely why they are ignoring you)

valid response, the reason i think it's not my fault is because this problem has persisted over 3 pcs with all different cpus, gpus, display assemblies, even installation drives being primary or alternate (i.e. not boot drive installation). i blamed the apm because invoker is an extremely high apm hero that, yes, even comparable to pros, you can easily exceed average apm for other heroes by simply invoking a few spells, in reference to a very small timeframe. to give you an example, let's say i'm a midgame invoker sitting in the trees of a sidelane waiting for an enemy hero with cold snap and invis invoked. an enemy hero reveals, so i invoke tornado, wait two seconds, initiate with cold snap and tornado while invoking meteor, then cast meteor, then invoke and cast deafening blast. that's sixteen inputs, in addition to any other movement or attack commands, in a span of five or less seconds. the spells alone generate ~180 apm in that time, and my theory is that if the game were to be remapping my hotkeys to other keys such that one of my inputs were to equal two, my apm effectively doubling would exceed even a pro's apm doing the exact same thing as me, ergo giving the game a reason to flag my inputs as a script due to their speed. im not so much saying that i'm fast, but that the game thinks i'm faster than i am. let's say valve implemented an anti-scripting measure to limit apm in a five second span to 300, my theory fits perfectly. and of course valve would never want to confirm this

引用自 ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ：

This kind of rigging causes many hero's abilities to be played out of sequence ruining the gameplay. Ever echo empty ground when a blink input was dropped?
Try the training polygon in arcade and see if it drops your inputs there. If you get it dropping when in a private lobby, it may be you needing a wired keyboard or something. If its because of internet issues, there is really no good fixes as you can't do anything about internet infrastructure.

only happens in multiplayer but i do recall once being able to replicate the problem with all three of my mentioned heroes, arc warden, meepo, and invoker, in a demo as well as a local lobby. this was when i first experienced the issue, and when i first quit dota for a time due to my hotkeys being competely unuseable. i later returned after some months playing poorly, querying support again, and having the issue resolved with no response by again allowing me to map my hotkeys same as before

i will play around in a demo and private lobby for some time to see if i can get some more current info about this issue

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

引用自 Anal Cyst Analyst：

i think it's not my fault is because this problem has persisted over 3 pcs with all different cpus, gpus, display assemblies, even installation drives being primary or alternate

was they keyboard the same?'

you could practice less inputs going from spell to spell. from tornado to meteor you only need 2 E as the W is already loaded. and from meteor to blast you need w and q. Less inputs in the first place might make it easier.

[teleamachus]

引用自 ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ：

引用自 Anal Cyst Analyst：

i think it's not my fault is because this problem has persisted over 3 pcs with all different cpus, gpus, display assemblies, even installation drives being primary or alternate

was they keyboard the same?'

you could practice less inputs going from spell to spell. from tornado to meteor you only need 2 E as the W is already loaded. and from meteor to blast you need w and q. Less inputs in the first place might make it easier.

yeah that's something i've always meant to practice, but i don't even play invoker right now i'm hardly prepared to try relearning him if it's still unplayable. that's just a lot of effort that'd be wasted if it didn't end up working.

i just spent 5 minutes in a demo, 8 minutes on a local host with cheats, and 32 minutes on USE without cheats, and only lagged on the USE lobby. it wasn't that bad, either, but i did notice that my combos weren't as smooth later on in the game when invoke was a higher level, thus lower cd. it didn't seem to be a ping issue because i could invoke fine if i didn't cast spells, but once i started casting spells, i couldn't invoke as quickly because some elements weren't queuing up with my key presses (muscle memory playing a big part in my invokes means i'm hitting all 3 per spell regardless of what's already active, in addition to passive orb spamming because 0 cd lul). i thought maybe some minor packet loss was the issue but i didn't notice any other indicators of packet loss like unresponsiveness - only a few particular inputs were being ignored, but even with packet loss the inputs get registered later. the problem i have is that my inputs are completely ignored.

[☠ ௹ ☠ ௹ ☠]

引用自 Anal Cyst Analyst：

引用自 Gørilla Møde：

Why do you think this is a valve/dota issue and not a computer/you issue? I can guess 50 different things that aren't related to valve/dota so just wondering why you are certain it is valve side?

2 easy ones are that you have a overheating cpu or gpu that causes delay in the button inputs not being able to handle them properly. You could be playing on wifi and/or have other ♥♥♥♥♥♥ connections to internet or a provider that isn't consistent (vpn users will see this issue as an example). And plenty others i dont feel like typing out with 0 information provided other than "I know it's valve's fault"

I almost know it isn't valve/dota issue because you are basically asserting you press buttons faster than all the pros that ever played these heroes. Because, I find it hard to believe valve would ignore pro complaints about button input lag for high APM (which is likely why they are ignoring you)

valid response, the reason i think it's not my fault is because this problem has persisted over 3 pcs with all different cpus, gpus, display assemblies, even installation drives being primary or alternate (i.e. not boot drive installation). i blamed the apm because invoker is an extremely high apm hero that, yes, even comparable to pros, you can easily exceed average apm for other heroes by simply invoking a few spells, in reference to a very small timeframe. to give you an example, let's say i'm a midgame invoker sitting in the trees of a sidelane waiting for an enemy hero with cold snap and invis invoked. an enemy hero reveals, so i invoke tornado, wait two seconds, initiate with cold snap and tornado while invoking meteor, then cast meteor, then invoke and cast deafening blast. that's sixteen inputs, in addition to any other movement or attack commands, in a span of five or less seconds. the spells alone generate ~180 apm in that time, and my theory is that if the game were to be remapping my hotkeys to other keys such that one of my inputs were to equal two, my apm effectively doubling would exceed even a pro's apm doing the exact same thing as me, ergo giving the game a reason to flag my inputs as a script due to their speed. im not so much saying that i'm fast, but that the game thinks i'm faster than i am. let's say valve implemented an anti-scripting measure to limit apm in a five second span to 300, my theory fits perfectly. and of course valve would never want to confirm this

引用自 ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ：

This kind of rigging causes many hero's abilities to be played out of sequence ruining the gameplay. Ever echo empty ground when a blink input was dropped?
Try the training polygon in arcade and see if it drops your inputs there. If you get it dropping when in a private lobby, it may be you needing a wired keyboard or something. If its because of internet issues, there is really no good fixes as you can't do anything about internet infrastructure.

only happens in multiplayer but i do recall once being able to replicate the problem with all three of my mentioned heroes, arc warden, meepo, and invoker, in a demo as well as a local lobby. this was when i first experienced the issue, and when i first quit dota for a time due to my hotkeys being competely unuseable. i later returned after some months playing poorly, querying support again, and having the issue resolved with no response by again allowing me to map my hotkeys same as before

i will play around in a demo and private lobby for some time to see if i can get some more current info about this issue

So you have a problem with your theory. I'll accept you've tried it on different pc's and all that. I'm not arguing invoker requires more buttons than most other heroes.

The issue is - I can take a recent Invoker game of yours and find an APM of 378. So first you are just pulling random APM out of your ass when you can find the actual APM and it seems clear you never researched other player's APM's before.

BECAUSE if you did, then you would see you are about 100 APM lower than higher ranking immortal invoker players. In the first random game i pulled I found a high tier immortal invoker with 489 APM. HE HAS 111 MORE APM THAN YOU.........do you see why I have a hard time believing you?

[teleamachus]

引用自 Gørilla Møde：

引用自 Anal Cyst Analyst：

valid response, the reason i think it's not my fault is because this problem has persisted over 3 pcs with all different cpus, gpus, display assemblies, even installation drives being primary or alternate (i.e. not boot drive installation). i blamed the apm because invoker is an extremely high apm hero that, yes, even comparable to pros, you can easily exceed average apm for other heroes by simply invoking a few spells, in reference to a very small timeframe. to give you an example, let's say i'm a midgame invoker sitting in the trees of a sidelane waiting for an enemy hero with cold snap and invis invoked. an enemy hero reveals, so i invoke tornado, wait two seconds, initiate with cold snap and tornado while invoking meteor, then cast meteor, then invoke and cast deafening blast. that's sixteen inputs, in addition to any other movement or attack commands, in a span of five or less seconds. the spells alone generate ~180 apm in that time, and my theory is that if the game were to be remapping my hotkeys to other keys such that one of my inputs were to equal two, my apm effectively doubling would exceed even a pro's apm doing the exact same thing as me, ergo giving the game a reason to flag my inputs as a script due to their speed. im not so much saying that i'm fast, but that the game thinks i'm faster than i am. let's say valve implemented an anti-scripting measure to limit apm in a five second span to 300, my theory fits perfectly. and of course valve would never want to confirm this




only happens in multiplayer but i do recall once being able to replicate the problem with all three of my mentioned heroes, arc warden, meepo, and invoker, in a demo as well as a local lobby. this was when i first experienced the issue, and when i first quit dota for a time due to my hotkeys being competely unuseable. i later returned after some months playing poorly, querying support again, and having the issue resolved with no response by again allowing me to map my hotkeys same as before

i will play around in a demo and private lobby for some time to see if i can get some more current info about this issue

So you have a problem with your theory. I'll accept you've tried it on different pc's and all that. I'm not arguing invoker requires more buttons than most other heroes.

The issue is - I can take a recent Invoker game of yours and find an APM of 378. So first you are just pulling random APM out of your ass when you can find the actual APM and it seems clear you never researched other player's APM's before.

BECAUSE if you did, then you would see you are about 100 APM lower than higher ranking immortal invoker players. In the first random game i pulled I found a high tier immortal invoker with 489 APM. HE HAS 111 MORE APM THAN YOU.........do you see why I have a hard time believing you?

yeah totally, i was rolling off of random theories so you're absolutely right i'm pulling random numbers out of my ass - i've never measured apm in dota because it's not a very reliable metric for anything. you're also looking at a game where i have the problem that is reducing my apm, so it would make sense that when you compare a potential "max apm" to mine, mine would be so much lower. if you'd tell me how you found that metric, or search for more of mine, to see if years ago my apm was higher, i'd love to see what we can find. if i had to guess, it'd be in 2018-2019 that my apm would be highest

also just to throw it out there, i'm not playing at my regular higher apm on invoker right now since i'm not playing invoker. if i were playing him more, my actions would be more fluid and i'd probably be moving faster in most aspects, so my apm throughout the game would definitely be higher. this is about as low as my invoker apm should get, and it still seems extremely high to me