Black king bar is too strong

[Ambiguous winkyface]

I don't really get this item. It grants great stats, it's not too expensive and it's incredibly incredibly useful at any stage of the game.

It blocks ALL forms of spells, which renders quite a few heroes entirely useless against you. Litteraly entirely. It has no limitations apart from stupid use. You need to use it carefuly because the duration will decrease. The only item that 'counters' it is abysall blade and skullbasher.

But skullbasher has the huge non-viable-on-ranged-heroes limitation. Which might sound like it isn't a big deal, but it is. In higher mmr it's way greater a deal than the bkb duration decrease. Because people know when to use the item correctly. Not to mention skullbasher is also limited to very few heroes because it scales with attackspeed.

We had this game that lasted 70 minutes. We lost early game and their terrorblade and gyrocopter snowballed. But we got back in midgame and we got ahead with 20 kills.

What their team did is just stack BKBs all of a sudden(even selling some items just to get bkb). 4 of their heroes, only gyrocopter had it earlier(terroblade went very tanky instead), now had a BKB. It rendered me, as Earthspirit completely useless. It also rendered Centaur and storm spirit worthless.

I think BKB is overpowered. It needs a nerf somewhere. Make Blademail go thru the magic resistance for example. Or damage return spells. It's too much right now, defenitely after the purge buff. You cannot counter the item unless you're a skullbasher wielder(which has, like I said, great limitations unlike bkb)

[Ambiguous winkyface]

Gonna bump because I want to hear what you think of the current state bkb is in

[Eibon]

I mean, the entire point of BKB is that it renders counter-initiation ineffective, and protects you from nukes. Working as intended.

The counter to this is to initiate first with good disables. It doesn't sound like you had any, as you only mentioned two unreliable stuns. Doom and Static Storm + Ahgs will silence items, so they can be used against it.

If you see the enemy pushing on you and they have BKBs, try to bait them into using it. The stats it grants are actually fairly poor for the cost of the item.

[Ambiguous winkyface]

Originally posted by TheBlueMagician:

I mean, the entire point of BKB is that it renders counter-initiation ineffective, and protects you from nukes. Working as intended.

The counter to this is to initiate first with good disables. It doesn't sound like you had any, as you only mentioned two unreliable stuns. Doom and Static Storm + Ahgs will silence items, so they can be used against it.

If you see the enemy pushing on you and they have BKBs, try to bait them into using it. The stats it grants are actually fairly poor for the cost of the item.

Well centaur has a fairly reliable stun, considering he has a blink dagger. I agree and get that the point is to protect you from one sided damage, magic in this case. But I think it's too much neverthless. At max rank it lasts incredibly long. It basically renders not only nukers and supports useless, but also semi carries like Storm spirit and Earth spirit.

It counters everything apart from true carries and true disables. Doom is a good general counter, but his ulti is but single target and he hasn't always got it ofcource. Disruptor is very very though to use for peole easily dodge his cage(so their bkb is delayed by a second but that doesn't do poop). He usually cannot get in proper range to land it for he's very squishy.

I still think it needs a nerf somewhere. I think the nerf where blademail/return damage spells aren't countered is very justified.

[Dwarvenhobble]

If the enemy runs in with BKB to initiate, unless it's a carry you're best ignoring them. One of my favourite tricks when I play tank initiator is to have BKB, run in and wait till the enemy all fire ults etc on me. BKB them then say blade mail right after.
Generally the initiator isn't the threat you want to be firing on, he's there to pull fire or ♥♥♥♥ people up. throw a stun at them and watch them pop their BKB then ignore them and attack the enemy team.


Really you need some AD carries to make it work vs a team that all goes BKB as AD carries will just eat them alive still. most late game people go BKB very few go vanguard. Also if I remember righting there are some items or abilities that can purge BKB somehow. I forget how as I've normally support.

[Ambiguous winkyface]

Originally posted by Dwavenhobble:

If the enemy runs in with BKB to initiate, unless it's a carry you're best ignoring them. One of my favourite tricks when I play tank initiator is to have BKB, run in and wait till the enemy all fire ults etc on me. BKB them then say blade mail right after.
Generally the initiator isn't the threat you want to be firing on, he's there to pull fire or ♥♥♥♥ people up. throw a stun at them and watch them pop their BKB then ignore them and attack the enemy team.


Really you need some AD carries to make it work vs a team that all goes BKB as AD carries will just eat them alive still. most late game people go BKB very few go vanguard. Also if I remember righting there are some items or abilities that can purge BKB somehow. I forget how as I've normally support.

You could purge black king bar once, but it got buffed(mentioned in the earlier post) and now you cannot anymore.

Problem is, I do agree with what you say about evading it or sitting it out, sometimes you cannot ignore it. At the point our game was at, which is very late, you will have to teamfight. And no matter if we initiated or they did we would lose because of bkb. If they initiated that would mean one of us, at least, died or we would've lost the fight because of their bkbs. Same for us initiating.

I think it needs a clear counter. Right now it's a MUST GET lategame. And it makes the fight way more boring also.

[̣]

It's very good but not OP

[Eibon]

Originally posted by Super mega ninja assasin man:

Well centaur has a fairly reliable stun, considering he has a blink dagger. I agree and get that the point is to protect you from one sided damage, magic in this case. But I think it's too much neverthless. At max rank it lasts incredibly long. It basically renders not only nukers and supports useless, but also semi carries like Storm spirit and Earth spirit.

It counters everything apart from true carries and true disables. Doom is a good general counter, but his ulti is but single target and he hasn't always got it ofcource. Disruptor is very very though to use for peole easily dodge his cage(so their bkb is delayed by a second but that doesn't do poop). He usually cannot get in proper range to land it for he's very squishy.

I still think it needs a nerf somewhere. I think the nerf where blademail/return damage spells aren't countered is very justified.

Reliable stun/disable = targeted stun/disable

Nyx, Centaur, Earth Spirit, Mirana, and Kunkka do not have reliable disables.

There are also abilities that go through it. Bane's Fiend's Grip will hold them in place (but deal no damage), same with Pudge's Dismember. Spirit Breaker's Greater Bash will still stun, so his charge and ult will be able to affect units in useful ways for the team. There are also other heroes that diminish the effect of BKB, like Elder Titan (his spirit still steals damage, his ult is composite damage and the vaccum works, and his passive still applies), and Dark Seer (his ult will not do damage, but the illusions can still do good work).

You can also get BKBs yourself. Given your lineup, the BKB pickups on the enemy team were well justified, as it sounds like a lot of your initiation and damage relied on being able to disable the heroes. If the rest of your team did primarily magic damage, you kind of brought it on yourself. If they didn't, why not have your carries build BKB to use in a counter initiation?

BKB is a general purpose item that is picked up a lot because it helps increase effectiveness in teamfights, especially for high value targets. But there are strategies to counter it.

[Val]

Enemy team sold all their items to make bkb? get your entire team to sell items to make necromonicon and use em all at the same time.

[chris]

1. lots of spells (mostly ultimates) actually going through bkb.
2. with bkb now going down to 4 seconds, timing is really essential now.
3. bkb grants ♥♥♥♥♥♥ stats for most heroes without the active.
4. bkb uses one a whole inventory space.
5. if you have a spell heavy team that is countered by bkb, finish before they get the bkbs. if you wait around too long it's your fault.

[76561198062658773]

You have a 75 gold item that functions as maphack. and you find bkb op ?

[̣]

I remember once in a support vs. support matchup, everyone bought BKBs and it was a tickle fight for 10 seconds

[Ambiguous winkyface]

Originally posted by TheBlueMagician:

Originally posted by Super mega ninja assasin man:

Well centaur has a fairly reliable stun, considering he has a blink dagger. I agree and get that the point is to protect you from one sided damage, magic in this case. But I think it's too much neverthless. At max rank it lasts incredibly long. It basically renders not only nukers and supports useless, but also semi carries like Storm spirit and Earth spirit.

It counters everything apart from true carries and true disables. Doom is a good general counter, but his ulti is but single target and he hasn't always got it ofcource. Disruptor is very very though to use for peole easily dodge his cage(so their bkb is delayed by a second but that doesn't do poop). He usually cannot get in proper range to land it for he's very squishy.

I still think it needs a nerf somewhere. I think the nerf where blademail/return damage spells aren't countered is very justified.

Reliable stun/disable = targeted stun/disable

Nyx, Centaur, Earth Spirit, Mirana, and Kunkka do not have reliable disables.

There are also abilities that go through it. Bane's Fiend's Grip will hold them in place (but deal no damage), same with Pudge's Dismember. Spirit Breaker's Greater Bash will still stun, so his charge and ult will be able to affect units in useful ways for the team. There are also other heroes that diminish the effect of BKB, like Elder Titan (his spirit still steals damage, his ult is composite damage and the vaccum works, and his passive still applies), and Dark Seer (his ult will not do damage, but the illusions can still do good work).

You can also get BKBs yourself. Given your lineup, the BKB pickups on the enemy team were well justified, as it sounds like a lot of your initiation and damage relied on being able to disable the heroes. If the rest of your team did primarily magic damage, you kind of brought it on yourself. If they didn't, why not have your carries build BKB to use in a counter initiation?

BKB is a general purpose item that is picked up a lot because it helps increase effectiveness in teamfights, especially for high value targets. But there are strategies to counter it.

Fair points. You're eloquent I'll give you that.

But our team was relying on fairly balanced damage. In their team physical damage had the overhand slightly. It's just problematic that some heroes are rendered SO useless. Those spells you mentioned are very rare ofcource but it's a good point neverthless(those that ignore bkb).

What you said after is true also. Apparently we should have gotten bkb ourselfs too. But that's just not right in my mind. I don't think there should be 1 must-have-lategame item.

Still think blademail shouldn't be ignored+damage return spells :P

[僕の名前 (仮)]

It is supposed to be strong, or you racist?

[Val]

Originally posted by Hipster:

It is supposed to be strong, or you racist?

Bars of all color and social class are equal!

[MY DIET DR. KELP]

Originally posted by Aghny:

You have a 75 gold item that functions as maphack. and you find bkb op ?

75 gold? You can't buy a single ward...