Last hits, should support do them or let the carries?

[Hong/Sakai]

Okie, interesting scenerio in my last game. I was playing veno and I was going for carry build "mass slow and damage". In my lane was Legion Commander. Of course as usual I'll try to farm by last hitting creeps. I was called noob because I didn't let him last hits the creeps (I was doing good farming).

Was it my fault for last hittings? Should I always go for support build with veno?

Oh, FYI we lost and it was my fault for doing better than LC in lane farmings; according to his party friends.

[Mike]

Carries are item-dependent, meaning they need to start getting farm immediately in order to be relevant later on, and sometimes, at all (in the case of some of the harder carries, like Ember Spirit or Morphling).

Supports and semi-carries (which Venomancer can be classified as either) need little farm or gold to be useful earlier.

By playing a support and getting last hits, you're essentially denying last hits to your team's carry. You don't need that gold, you can perform perfectly fine and well with boots and 1 or 2 items even throughout the entire match. Eventually, you'll probably fall off and be useless, regardless of how much farm you have, and that's when your carries are supposed to pick up the match. If you have been taking their farm, then chances are they won't be at the point they need to be in order to transition from "being carried to carrying the team".

Basically, when you pick a support, you're looking for opportunities to actively harass the enemy HEROES and be a nuisance in lane to create space for your carry to farm. It isn't about you getting last hits or gold income. Your trickle will be sufficient, and if you're good enough, you might even get a few kills along the way. Your job, from the get-go, is to make the enemy team's life difficult in any way you can. From simply right-clicking them in lane to dewarding and doing things like helping contest runes or block enemy jungle camps.

Veno would probably be played in the 3 position at highest, and in your case, your LC would be the 1, since LC is a hard carry and assumedly the only one on your team. The 1 gets all the farm they possibly can, you can get occasional farm, and as Veno, you can use your wards to help farm jungle camps and things as well. Find other ways to make gold than stealing from your hard carry.

Ultimately, when it gets down to it, you have many, many options of ways to make the gold you need right from the start of the game. The chief way among them is probably ganking, followed by pulling and stacking creep camps. Farming the lane is the EASIEST and laziest way to gain gold, but that's also why it's typically reserved for the hard carry, because they're too weak at that point to actually have any options besides that. Many heroes can't even jungle from level 1 because of how weak they are starting. And you are crippling them by taking their farm if you contest their last hits, rather than denying creeps or harassing the enemy.

[BEEN]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned denying creeps. Good supports deny creeps in order to keep the enemy from getting gold and exp. That's what they should be focusing on instead of taking LH from an obvious carry/item dependant hero like LC.

[Novogrod]

Are you seriously asking if a support should last hit over a carry? Really?

A support should NEVER last hit over a carry. You should never have ANYONE fighting for last hits in a lane, period. If you want to play carry Veno, you should have gone to a different lane. Two carries should NEVER be in the same lane, period.

You should only last hit when your carry cannot reach the creep in time, or when your carry isn't present. Otherwise you should be stacking, pulling, and last hitting THOSE creeps. This is how supports get gold.

[Mike]

Nguyên văn bởi Super Jesus:

Are you seriously asking if a support should last hit over a carry? Really?

A support should NEVER last hit over a carry. You should never have ANYONE fighting for last hits in a lane, period. If you want to play carry Veno, you should have gone to a different lane. Two carries should NEVER be in the same lane, period.

You should only last hit when your carry cannot reach the creep in time, or when your carry isn't present. Otherwise you should be stacking, pulling, and last hitting THOSE creeps. This is how supports get gold.

To some people, this really is a "me, me, me" game, rather than a cooperative team game, unfortunately.

[the real hero]

Nguyên văn bởi Ream:

Nguyên văn bởi Derek:

they were correct

Now that's insane. The way I see it, veno can either go damage build or support build. I was supporting in terms of sentry and obs. All I did was farming creeps. He should of got the axe and do better than a range. Never knew it would be my fault for being a better last-hitter.

point taken.

Blaming his last hit skill when he is forced to compete with a ranged hero, regardless of his items, is something only the plebs of this community do....LC has priority as a carry over veno, as does pretty much any hero considered a "carry". Arrogance will not help you win games ever, you need to work WITH your team, and in all fairness veno is nowhere near as strong late game as LC is, end of discussion...those guys blaming you for the loss seems reasonable IMO

[Iron Breaker]

Nguyên văn bởi Dr Taco Monster:

Nguyên văn bởi Eos:

wasnt defending the veno xD but in all honesty if a person rekts with a hero nomatter what that hero is why hinder them?
Ive mvp'd as kotl with 2 divine rapiers xD not one person on my team was angry
as long as you do well then the meta doesnt matter
one of my fave quotes
"if it looks stupid but works, then it isnt stupid"

I see what you are saying, but this kind of misses my point. Sure you could have a game where KOTL dominated with 2 rapiers, hell I've dominated as treant and ended up carrying. My point is, if those 2 rapiers were on a weaver or some such carry they would get far more use out of them than a KOTL. This is what I mean by broadly 2 categories.

to weaver potential maybe but its all on the player

[Chubi Chubi]

i think let the support get some creeps

[[D]Mit.]

As a support only go for the last hits your carry can't get.
Only get farm when pulling.

[HappyDays]

You let the carry farm.

After a minute or two, if the carry is either:

1 - auto attacking
2 - poor at last hitting

They may be a new player and I will stop harassing the enemy heroes and last hit enemy creeps.

[Zeppline]

Veno certainly can be played as a carry; but do know that it's important to have the carry on the lane take the gold, legion can only play carry and it isn't possible for her to play support, so in other words, it falls to you to adjust your role into a support role for the match being as there is only so much gold in the game. You might ask, when can I play carry veno? Do it with another support, if you're laning with a dazzle or an omniknight you can safely take most of the last hits as there is another hero which fits the role of a support better than veno. It's all about prioritizing roles and adjusting yourself to fit the needs of a team.

[June]

This thread was quite old before the recent post, so we're locking it to prevent confusion.