Why are we always so toxic?

[Mirror]

I have recently made a few posts about certain problems in Dota 2 and what I kept seeing is that everyone was blaming one or the other. The young blames the old, old blames the young, and I wondered. Why is the game never blamed or the devs?

While I understand the players are to blame for a specific encounter. The game itself is the one to blame for creating the situation to begin with. Not too long ago we had money starved supports trying their best, a few changes made this situation less stressful. But the items required to be a successful support are very expensive. And god forbid you steal a last hit because your carry will go ballistic and cry bloody murder. This situation, which creates toxicity between players is so unnecessary.

The game has changed a lot from when I used to play on Warcraft 3, in dota 1 days. But the hatred between a carry and support has always been there. The greed and selfish mentality of a Carry, is multiplied by the role in game. This dynamic between teammates is a breeding ground for resentment, hate, trolling, and grief.

If the gold was more evenly spread among the team. There would no reason for such a reaction to begin with. Every member plays a role in the game, everyone should be awarded accordingly. I hate seeing supports who do so much, get treated so poorly. They are money starved but are required to give vision, stack, be at all lanes, react to everything and are always the ones at fault when things go wrong.

But this is just one mechanic of many that could be changed to make the experience between players less volatile. I just wish for an environment where as team mates, we support each other, and get properly rewarded for our contributions. But I doubt I will be playing Dota to see this change, if it ever does happen. I was here since the birth of Dota, I think I was here for its death too. Just never noticed it.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Heroes of the Storm did away with the Carry-Support dynamic; everyone had a shared XP bar and leveled up at the same time. Instead, roles were defined by an MMO-style Tank-Healer-DPS triumvirate. Despite that, there was still plenty of toxicity around roles; "don't attack the tank, @#%$" was almost the motto of wannabe pros looking to start a fight.

As long as different heroes do different things (a basic mechanic in MOBA's), you'll have people flaming their teammates for playing poorly, or picking the wrong hero, or not showing up for objectives, etc. MOBA's are naturally toxicity-inducing due to throwing five guys of wildly different abilities, attitudes, and skill level.

Heck, even Pokemon Unite is full of toxicity, using the very limited tools available. Humans are just too volatile to cooperate with each other in zero-obligation random matchmaking, and the moment that something goes wrong, players will look for someone to blame.

[Mirror]

Originally posted by Technomancer:

Heroes of the Storm did away with the Carry-Support dynamic; everyone had a shared XP bar and leveled up at the same time. Instead, roles were defined by an MMO-style Tank-Healer-DPS triumvirate. Despite that, there was still plenty of toxicity around roles; "don't attack the tank, @#%$" was almost the motto of wannabe pros looking to start a fight.

As long as different heroes do different things (a basic mechanic in MOBA's), you'll have people flaming their teammates for playing poorly, or picking the wrong hero, or not showing up for objectives, etc. MOBA's are naturally toxicity-inducing due to throwing five guys of wildly different abilities, attitudes, and skill level.

Heck, even Pokemon Unite is full of toxicity, using the very limited tools available. Humans are just too volatile to cooperate with each other in zero-obligation random matchmaking, and the moment that something goes wrong, players will look for someone to blame.

this is true but the devs, especially Icefrog who has been working on Dota for decades. Could do more to make things less toxic. He has made many changes but none have done anything to help the dynamic between a carry and support. Let alone the gold disparity between the roles.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Originally posted by Jinx:

Originally posted by Technomancer:

Heroes of the Storm did away with the Carry-Support dynamic; everyone had a shared XP bar and leveled up at the same time. Instead, roles were defined by an MMO-style Tank-Healer-DPS triumvirate. Despite that, there was still plenty of toxicity around roles; "don't attack the tank, @#%$" was almost the motto of wannabe pros looking to start a fight.

As long as different heroes do different things (a basic mechanic in MOBA's), you'll have people flaming their teammates for playing poorly, or picking the wrong hero, or not showing up for objectives, etc. MOBA's are naturally toxicity-inducing due to throwing five guys of wildly different abilities, attitudes, and skill level.

Heck, even Pokemon Unite is full of toxicity, using the very limited tools available. Humans are just too volatile to cooperate with each other in zero-obligation random matchmaking, and the moment that something goes wrong, players will look for someone to blame.

this is true but the devs, especially Icefrog who has been working on Dota for decades. Could do more to make things less toxic. He has made many changes but none have done anything to help the dynamic between a carry and support. Let alone the gold disparity between the roles.

He's actually done quite a lot. Free wards, personal courier, stacking gold, gold and xp for ward kills, bounty runes, early-game caster items like Aether and Glimmer... The game isn't perfectly even, but it's MUCH better than it was on launch.

Can you name a MOBA you feel properly balanced the different roles? I mention HotS as a game that has no farm split and plenty of role-related toxicity.

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

People aren't kind to other people wasting their time. But its really the matchmaker that's at fault. Maybe we should blame the matchmaker instead of the players. I think toxicity is fueled by the sheer number of one sided matches.

[Mirror]

Originally posted by Technomancer:

Originally posted by Jinx:

this is true but the devs, especially Icefrog who has been working on Dota for decades. Could do more to make things less toxic. He has made many changes but none have done anything to help the dynamic between a carry and support. Let alone the gold disparity between the roles.

He's actually done quite a lot. Free wards, personal courier, stacking gold, gold and xp for ward kills, bounty runes, early-game caster items like Aether and Glimmer... The game isn't perfectly even, but it's MUCH better than it was on launch.

Can you name a MOBA you feel properly balanced the different roles? I mention HotS as a game that has no farm split and plenty of role-related toxicity.

There was one that has a much better distribution system. Every hero kill/creep was shared evenly among the team. It was called Strife and would have been imo the next step in moba gaming. Sadly no one heard of it. I honestly enjoyed it so much while it was around. Dont know what happened to it. Dota even took some ideas from this game, if I am not mistaken. Like the courier system for all, instead of the one useless crow we had back in the day.

[Highrule -1]

In short, you want the game to be more casual-friendly.

[Mirror]

Originally posted by Highrule -1:

In short, you want the game to be more casual-friendly.

He asked for an example. I dont want anything specific per say. But some changes to alleviate some of that natural toxic reactions due to game choices would be nice.

Some toxic behavior we all have seen is carries losing their mind over a support taking a last hit. The reaction is appalling but I understand why they react that way. Every gold piece matters and losing even 100 gold can be the difference between a win and a loss, depending on your hero comp.

Anything to change that would be a blessing for all players.

[Vermillon Qliphoth]

its quite simple vavle is to spineless to actually punish toxic players you can go right now and destory your items in a game and you wont be banned unless you do it multiple times in a row .

they could implement an mmr refund system for smurfs and greifs instead smurfs are the ones who get extra mmr for breaking the rules and legit players get bent over .

instead we have highly varied games were vavle will go out of there way to give toxic player games at normal players cost we have this token system were they will give them tokens just because they qued support and walked to there lane while not even doing something as simple as taking away there tokens if they get role reported.

the whole system is made to for toxic players is pretty obvious . the player base is only as good as the punishment system .

[Mirror]

Originally posted by GABEN DONT CARE!:

its quite simple vavle is to spineless to actually punish toxic players you can go right now and destory your items in a game and you wont be banned unless you do it multiple times in a row .

they could implement an mmr refund system for smurfs and greifs instead smurfs are the ones who get extra mmr for breaking the rules and legit players get bent over .

instead we have highly varied games were vavle will go out of there way to give toxic player games at normal players cost we have this token system were they will give them tokens just because they qued support and walked to there lane while not even doing something as simple as taking away there tokens if they get role reported.

the whole system is made to for toxic players is pretty obvious . the player base is only as good as the punishment system .

while a lot of what you say is true. back in dota 1 days, we had none of this and had friendlier players. I mean, dont get me wrong. We still had a lot of player problems back in the day but we had a global ban list. It was a global list that was handled by anyone who hosted a game. Players would get put on a ban list and never leave it. So if anything, we were super harsh on griefers. Maybe it is a system that needs to return. Our ban list also used ip addresses so that they couldnt spoof/smurf into a game.

[Highrule -1]

Big oof.

Originally posted by Jinx:

Originally posted by GABEN DONT CARE!:

its quite simple vavle is to spineless to actually punish toxic players you can go right now and destory your items in a game and you wont be banned unless you do it multiple times in a row .

they could implement an mmr refund system for smurfs and greifs instead smurfs are the ones who get extra mmr for breaking the rules and legit players get bent over .

instead we have highly varied games were vavle will go out of there way to give toxic player games at normal players cost we have this token system were they will give them tokens just because they qued support and walked to there lane while not even doing something as simple as taking away there tokens if they get role reported.

the whole system is made to for toxic players is pretty obvious . the player base is only as good as the punishment system .

while a lot of what you say is true. back in dota 1 days, we had none of this and had friendlier players. I mean, dont get me wrong. We still had a lot of player problems back in the day but we had a global ban list. It was a global list that was handled by anyone who hosted a game. Players would get put on a ban list and never leave it. So if anything, we were super harsh on griefers. Maybe it is a system that needs to return. Our ban list also used ip addresses so that they couldnt spoof/smurf into a game.

The bl's weren't global, nor was there ever a single comprehensive bl. Different people used different lists, and everyone was free to add anyone on them based on whatever excuse they liked. Popular hosts literally added people who crushed them into their bl, and some even went as far as adding anyone who killed them while they were jungling for "maphack". Soon enough hosts threatened people with "wrong" hero picks/items/plays with bls. The bls were abused so hard that someone being on a bl lost all meaning after the first month or two. Bls (and bot rooms) were the beginning of the end for DotA in TFT servers. Speaking positively about those is nothing short of having rose-tinted glasses on.

You talk about player quality differences between now and back then, but you don't understand the core of the issue. It's not a matter of age or generation, it's a matter of gaming going mainstream. Back then gaming was a niche, and the majority of people who actively gamed actually cared about the process. Those who stuck around and formed communities for different games were people who, to some level, loved the game they were playing. Of course the atmosphere was better when the community was made of like-minded people.

Then gaming went mainstream. These days gamers who care about the games they play are the absolute minority, overshadowed by the crowd of selfish, instant-gratification seeking casual trash that doesn't care about other players nor about the game they play. All they care about is achieving their own fun and satisfaction, even if it's at the cost of others'. In their eyes gaming is a simple source of personal entertainment, and every other player in a multiplayer setting should be working towards satisfying their specific needs. Whether others enjoy the game or not is irrelevant to these trashes, since they never cared about anyone but themselves to begin with.

How do you make an f2p game like Dota 2 less toxic? You don't. This casual trash will never be satisfied no matter how hard you try and make the game "less toxic". They want the game to bend to each of their individual needs, not for it to be a place where "everyone" has fun.

[Zagryzaec]

Thats funny cause just yesterday i had few games and no toxicity in any of them.

Maybe you just should not provoke people?

Why people dont blame devs or game for personal conflicts? Because those has nothing to do with them.

[Grimmz]

its just a matter of convenience really. its much easier to hate a player than the game.
if you hated the game, why would you continue playing? its just easier to point a finger at the support that stole your 100 gold.

i think the root problem is the solo queue.

people expect random teammates to act the certain way and speak the certain language.
its a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ roulette, sometimes you get brain cells in your team and sometimes you don't.
you can stop gambling on randoms and make your own team, but you wont because you want convenience and its just easy to click that queue button and let the match maker choose for you, but its funny cos those same people still complain about it.

its like sitting on ant's nest with bare bottom and wondering why you're getting stung.
keep on sitting on it and keep on complaining..

honestly tho, build your own team and the problem will solve itself.

edit: they should add a description on the solo queue button:

''Yes i acknowledge that there's a possibility for me to get total idiots in my team and therefore i will not complain and be a ♥♥♥♥♥ about it. i will eat ♥♥♥♥ because i chose to, by pressing this button i agree''

[Tanzerdragon]

I had a lot of games where there were no toxic people until lately -- just within the last year and the past couple of days. My annoyance has exponentially increased. There used to be players who could see you were new and struggling and offered very good advice. It was different, people had morals and good sportsmanship. A bunch of mature players for once!

Not so nowadays, there's a lot of: this team is trash. I mean, did we have a choice to play with each other? Lol... I do not know where they are coming from. My boyfriend and I were playing a match together just tonight, and this other duo team started trolling him for no reason. He picked Viper and went bot lane, tiny took mid, lost mid, went down to bot lane and didn't assist. So my bf went mid because mid tower was gone, we needed to defend. And then tiny comes back and starts to throw creeps at him. The other teammate, an IO character then started to teleport Viper to the other base and purposefully killed him.
And after I called IO out on it, they started to teleport me too. We reported them, and I am sure they reported us, even though, we were just trying to play and have a nice time.

So the argument that we are being toxic to each other does not apply to all. There are just some very naturally toxic people out there, can we just get rid of them?

[Mirror]

Originally posted by Tanzerdragon:

I had a lot of games where there were no toxic people until lately -- just within the last year and the past couple of days. My annoyance has exponentially increased. There used to be players who could see you were new and struggling and offered very good advice. It was different, people had morals and good sportsmanship. A bunch of mature players for once!

Not so nowadays, there's a lot of: this team is trash. I mean, did we have a choice to play with each other? Lol... I do not know where they are coming from. My boyfriend and I were playing a match together just tonight, and this other duo team started trolling him for no reason. He picked Viper and went bot lane, tiny took mid, lost mid, went down to bot lane and didn't assist. So my bf went mid because mid tower was gone, we needed to defend. And then tiny comes back and starts to throw creeps at him. The other teammate, an IO character then started to teleport Viper to the other base and purposefully killed him.
And after I called IO out on it, they started to teleport me too. We reported them, and I am sure they reported us, even though, we were just trying to play and have a nice time.

So the argument that we are being toxic to each other does not apply to all. There are just some very naturally toxic people out there, can we just get rid of them?

Wish we could but the game and developers dont leave a way to do this. The report system is bs. Like throwing a tic tac into a septic tank.

[Absche]

Game is great in creating frustration/aggression cycles and attracts players that are very susceptible to it at the same time. I also think there is a misinterpretation of competitiveness in the game. And developers and players use this as an argument to explain toxicity.

In Dota2 public matchmaking competitive means, you get nothing if your team loses. And you get the same if you win in close high skill matches or in low skill stomps. Also you can win because the system gives your bad team a bad team on the opponent side instead of challenging players to create better, more competitive conditions in their own behalf. Strict solo and ranked roles are examples for that. That should be part of unranked gaming but not of ranked.