Chen is completely useless

[Baneslayer]

Nobody cares about esports chen players. Make him not worthless so i can random in peace.

[Deepbluediver]

I don't think the hero is "worthless", though I would agree that he is overly-complicated at the moment for what he brings to the field. He's got, effectively, 5 active abilities, some with multiple effects. His winrate in low-skill brackets is atrocious, and even at the highest skill level it's below average.

We'll have to see what the next TI brings, but I do think that Valve needs to take a serious look at the hero and rework his facets, talents, abilities, shard, and scepter benefits to give him fewer-but-more-distinct builds that he can roll with.

[vongogh]

I used to think this, but if you see skilled players use him, he gets pretty strong with ancient creeps. But like any hero, can look really bad when losing.

[76561198164658792]

Hero isn't worthless.

Pretty sure he has the most base damage and hp of any of the ranged universal heroes.

And at least in Turbo he pushes fast enough to be viable IMO.

[Danaie]

The fact you don’t know how to play chen doesn’t mean he’s useless

[Deepbluediver]

Originally posted by vongogh:

I used to think this, but if you see skilled players use him, he gets pretty strong with ancient creeps. But like any hero, can look really bad when losing.

Yes, true, but if a hero is really only viable at a pro-level, I don't think its good for the game overall. And even in pro-matches it's not like he's a constant pick-or-ban; he's just a "sometimes" consideration for the split push.

As I said before, I think that there's room to rework the hero to give him a choice between different styles of play, ideally one focused around microing and maybe the other being more a generic support but that was easier/more-suited for pub-play.

[Water Ｖａｐｏｒ Merchant]

Considering Chen has been getting nothing but nerfs for years + oddball reworks that eventually get nerfed too, it's safe to say he's one of the strongest supports Valve are afraid to make "good" because it could easily go way too far. Chen's healing is unmatched by any other hero in the game, even Io or Dazzle, and with the right creeps he has way more harass ability than any other hero in lane, with options to burn mana, root, stun, and nuke at his fingertips, on top of the bonus right clicks.
I'd say his low winrate is less to do with his strength as a hero and more to do with the fact his healing can be easily countered at pick stage. Nobody in their right mind will last pick a Chen unless they're playing 4d chess, which makes him susceptible to counters in the form of Necrophos and Venomancer, both of whom have negative regen amp.

[Deepbluediver]

Originally posted by Water Ｖａｐｏｒ Merchant:

Considering Chen has been getting nothing but nerfs for years + oddball reworks that eventually get nerfed too, it's safe to say he's one of the strongest supports Valve are afraid to make "good" because it could easily go way too far. Chen's healing is unmatched by any other hero in the game, even Io or Dazzle, and with the right creeps he has way more harass ability than any other hero in lane, with options to burn mana, root, stun, and nuke at his fingertips, on top of the bonus right clicks.
I'd say his low winrate is less to do with his strength as a hero and more to do with the fact his healing can be easily countered at pick stage. Nobody in their right mind will last pick a Chen unless they're playing 4d chess, which makes him susceptible to counters in the form of Necrophos and Venomancer, both of whom have negative regen amp.

If he's so easily countered, then then how come Valve needs to keep nerfing him in other ways? I feel like there are plenty of other heroes who effectively need specific counters and yet are significantly easier to play than Chen.

If there's a hero who you need an Immortal-level skill just to START with, then I feel like it's poor design. And I'd love to see more of him in something other than the occasional pro-match.

That's why I originally said he needs some kind of rework. I have few thoughts on that, but I didn't want to hijack OPs thread.

[Cotoi]

Originally posted by Baneslayer:

Nobody cares about esports chen players. Make him not worthless so i can random in peace.

they destroyed a lot of heroes, nothing really works anymore... supports are really useless. wellcome to cosmetic updates and randomized stats with no reason. personally I would call the current game cringe and mindless. I am yet to have a fun game in the current meta.

[Cotoi]

Originally posted by vongogh:

I used to think this, but if you see skilled players use him, he gets pretty strong with ancient creeps. But like any hero, can look really bad when losing.

wow such an elaborate argument... becasue players who's job is literally to play DOTA, that sleap eat and even play in the same house with thei team mates can use the hero, it means the hero is not worthless for generic players that play 1-2 hours a day with random people on the internet. I guess just becasue some can use an F1 car to go around a circuit fast, such a car certainly would not be worthless to just go to the mall right?

[Water Ｖａｐｏｒ Merchant]

Originally posted by Deepbluediver:

Originally posted by Water Ｖａｐｏｒ Merchant:

Considering Chen has been getting nothing but nerfs for years + oddball reworks that eventually get nerfed too, it's safe to say he's one of the strongest supports Valve are afraid to make "good" because it could easily go way too far. Chen's healing is unmatched by any other hero in the game, even Io or Dazzle, and with the right creeps he has way more harass ability than any other hero in lane, with options to burn mana, root, stun, and nuke at his fingertips, on top of the bonus right clicks.
I'd say his low winrate is less to do with his strength as a hero and more to do with the fact his healing can be easily countered at pick stage. Nobody in their right mind will last pick a Chen unless they're playing 4d chess, which makes him susceptible to counters in the form of Necrophos and Venomancer, both of whom have negative regen amp.

If he's so easily countered, then then how come Valve needs to keep nerfing him in other ways? I feel like there are plenty of other heroes who effectively need specific counters and yet are significantly easier to play than Chen.

If there's a hero who you need an Immortal-level skill just to START with, then I feel like it's poor design. And I'd love to see more of him in something other than the occasional pro-match.

That's why I originally said he needs some kind of rework. I have few thoughts on that, but I didn't want to hijack OPs thread.

I don't think every hero needs to adhere to the "simple to play, difficult to master" line of thinking. Look at Meepo, most micro intense hero in the game because he's intentionally designed to be a micro hero, which be default makes him difficult to learn and play. But once you know how to play him he's about as good as any other hero.

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

if you played 30 games with him, what would your winrate be? 30%? 40%? you don't think you'd figure something out do you?

[Deepbluediver]

Originally posted by Water Ｖａｐｏｒ Merchant:

I don't think every hero needs to adhere to the "simple to play, difficult to master" line of thinking. Look at Meepo, most micro intense hero in the game because he's intentionally designed to be a micro hero, which be default makes him difficult to learn and play. But once you know how to play him he's about as good as any other hero.

I agree that not every hero needs to be exactly the same or fall into a strict pattern, but I do think we can narrow the gap a little. Because right now Dazzle is picked a fraction of a percent in pubs and has a winrate that varies between "below average" and "atrocious". But even in pro-matches he's not picked all that often.

Just look at the comparison- in this current patch you can have a hero like WK who has literally 1 single active ability. And its not like he's excluded from pro-level play. Then we have Chen, who has 4-5 (depending on how you count) different active abilities, some with multiple, wildly different effects, that's even before you get into any creep-abilities that he wants to use AND items.
And if you try to compare to a hero like Meepo- well one major issue that all of Meep's clones have the same abilities and same stats. It's not like you're trying to find one particular minion out of clusterfudge of particle effects.

If it's really impossible to make a minion-mancer hero that's not OP, then he should go back to the drawing board. If not though (and this is what I really feel would be the better option) would be to rework him to give him a few different but more distinctive builds. Because right now I feel like his whole kit is too complicated and unfocused.


Edit: I think I will make a separate thread about this, because I actually think it would be interesting to discuss Chen in more detail. When I do I'll link it here.

[Deepbluediver]

Part 1 of my Chen Mega-thread is up: https://steamcommunity.com/app/570/discussions/0/4355625227123846118/

Enter if you dare.

[Kampfkekskrieger EXP Folk Master]

what do your cultures know about strategy? nothing.

[Artek [General]]

I actually started playing recently and he's honestly kinda based. Sure - you need to be 150 IQ gigachad to make the optimal use of him, but usually you don't need to, especially in low skills in unranked matches.
He provides a LOT of healing to the team, he can provide increased attack speed on target of choice which helps your carries to kill them quicker and i think he can dispell?...
I honestly don't even use creeps in teamfights much - usually i keep converting enemy's ranged creeps until i hit my unit limit and then i send them together with a creep wave to push a lane. They end up farming me extra gold and even take down a tower sometimes.
As far as his now default summoned creeps go - i found Hellbear to be the most effective in early game. You just send it to harass opponents, opponents kill it and end up giving a notable attack speed bonus to you, your ally and even the creeps and taking lots of damage for it. Even worth the gold and EXP you end up giving them.
I don't even micromanage it - i just rightclick as all units.