justify to me enigma's big cooldowns

[Pay Child Suport]

no really. why are those cooldowns so high?

malefice. it's a stun, but why 15 seconds? look at lina, leoric.
conversion. for such a squishy unit why 35 seconds?
midnight pulse. decent skill, but again why 35 seconds? can't even use it twice in a skirmish.
blackhole. well let's it's just an inferior berserker's call

[Artek [General]]

Some characters are designed to be one-fight wonders. They give their cast and that's that - either they win a fight or they'll have to go and fool around for a couple of minutes.

15 seconds for a stun is a pretty average cooldown. Reason why Lina and Leshrak have faster cooldowns on theirs is because their stuns require actual aim and enemy prediction to hit, while Enigma just clicks on enemy and that's that. On top of that his stun is profoundly annoying - while the stun duration itself is fairly short, the fact that it comes in short bursts can profoundly mess with character who have long casting times / long attack animation / channeling abilities, not to mention shutting down blink daggers. Its a powerful stun and 15 seconds is a perfectly fair cooldown for such an ability.

Conversion units are totally fine too. Yeah, they're weak... Until they multiply into like a dozen. They deal a fairly decent amount of damage compared to something like Venomancer's ♥♥♥♥♥♥ wards that deal about as much damage as a melee creep. Its a pressuring tool for pushing lanes - just click "move and engage" command on the lane and go do something else while the little guys push the lane together with normal creeps, earning you extra gold and potentially even taking down a tower. They're not meant to be sent to die against an enemy hero.

As for Pusle and Blackhole... Fairly obvious, no? You're not supposed to use them twice in a skirmish.
Enigma's optimal cast is putting Pulse down and then Backholing the whole enemy team inside the Pulse, which usually leads to a team wipe because the sum total of damage of combined abilities is crazy high.
And Blackhole is one of the most powerful abilities in the entire game. A good full-team BH can easily win a teamfight, its very hard to comeback after it. So, high CD ensures Enigma can't just spam it nilly willy. You have to catch that PERFECT moment or go away.
Its an AoE, 5 seconds stun that ignores BKB. F*cking OF COURSE it got gigantic CD, what are you talking about.

[Pay Child Suport]

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1. vengeful spirit. that's also a point and click stun. and that's not 15s cd.
2. dozen? its only 6. and again, JUSTIFY the big cooldown. not how "powerful" they are that they are worth that 35s cd. name me another skill, stun or nuke or summon, that has 35s cd.
3. pulse is good I admit, but that doesn't justify the 35s cd.
4. and by that logic, a 5man berserker's call would easily win a teamfight. and its very hard to comeback with it. and to add salt into that wound, berserker's call is lower than 35s cd. what's your justification now?

[Artek [General]]

Originally posted by Tentacle Grape:

^

1. vengeful spirit. that's also a point and click stun. and that's not 15s cd.
2. dozen? its only 6. and again, JUSTIFY the big cooldown. not how "powerful" they are that they are worth that 35s cd. name me another skill, stun or nuke or summon, that has 35s cd.
3. pulse is good I admit, but that doesn't justify the 35s cd.
4. and by that logic, a 5man berserker's call would easily win a teamfight. and its very hard to comeback with it.

1. Its also only 1.7s duration. More of a damage nuke than a stun really.
If Enigma could spam Malefece - i imagine it could become quite frustrating, as counting for the 2 second pauses between bursts its technically an 8 seconds stun (again: some heroes have trouble taking actions between the bursts).

2. Don't know about 35, but Phoenix got 2 of his skills cooldown for 30 - the divebomb and the beam. Close enough. And only one of his skills is 20s. Its actually kinda frustrating to play him because of this...
I cannot say for certain what devs see in the ability for that long a cooldown, but seeing how eidolons seem to live for 40 seconds... I think its to encourage the player to actually use them and multiply them, not just spam the ability nilly willy? Again - you get crazy values from the guys if you use them well, so i don't really see a problem.
Lone Druid got his bear on 120 cooldown and its not even an ult.

3. It does. 10% MAX HP per second for 12 seconds in 600 radius? Crazy strong, more than justified.
Warlock has something similar with Upheaval and he also cooldowns for 35s.

4. Axe got 100 less range on the call and 1 second less of duration. Also enemies who escaped the initial call don't get called post-factum, while Blackhole works for the entire duration and it pretty much prevents some heroes from counter-attacking while the hole is active. I'm sure everyone in their life at least once had jumped with blink dagger in attempt to stun Enigma, only to get caught by the very edge of BH hitbox anyway.
Axe' kit also doesn't allow him to do anything else besides that. His ult is useless until someone is low and the hunger thing barely does anything past 25 minutes.

Abilities don't exist in a vacuum of being compared to each other, but they also exist within the context of their character's full kit. Enigma can do more than just black-holing, while Axe not really. Axe exists only to jump with the Call and then finish off the weakened enemies, Enigma can deny areas with Pulse, split-push by sending eidolons in another direction and he got a cute stun as a back up. So, he's designed as a high-risk, high-reward caster who uses his abilities rarely, but makes them count.
I'm uncertain what's his current meta status, maybe he is a little bit underpowered, but at best i could agree to reducing all his abilities by maybe 5 seconds, after that we risk breaking the character.

[HellBrokenLoose]

OP has a point. the real problem is the people in charge of this game. I'm afraid their hair is anything but naturally colored and their waist circumference exceeding modern chair design. Clearly orchestrated with a feminine touch and littered with left wing ideology. This game is DOOMED. Its the typical woke mindset corporate liberal art degree management ideas that have crippled this game inside and out. They don't care at all. This game is teaming with people who have no business managing it. Their prerogative is revenue, not the Art that this once was. If you ever played Warcarft 3 and the real DOTA from the early 2000's you had the opportunity to enjoy this game for what it truly is and those cool downs make sense.

Unfortunately people been drinking tap water for far too long and don't even realize how pacified they have become from the fluoride within and how it directly effects their neurochemistry and alters their very being. its a leap but it is a direct correlation to the utter decay of Dota 2.

A lot of the noise from outside dota 2 has spilled in and turned what once was a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ EPIC game into a fooking loony bin. Its another game that once it went free to play, began its demise.

[Pay Child Suport]

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1. hmm I dunno. malefice's biggest strength is also its biggest weakness. it is strong against channeling skills like dismember. but at the same time those that could wind walk from it will definitely wind walk from it. it is a unique stun but no way is it any better than any other regular stun like storm bolt or impale.

2. exactly. very frustrating to be stuck doing nothing because of how big the cooldown is. on top of that eidolons are super squishy that even I have trouble keeping up with mid lane level when I jungle uncontested from level 1 to 8. after somewhere in 10 min you HAVE to go out of jungle aka get frustrated on the big cooldown when at the lane. and of course eaten alive by the likes of mid lina, tiny or slark.

3. 12 seconds isn't as good as you think it is. unless you have idiots that would stay on that spot for that entire 12 second. I'd rather have duration cooldown and mana cost reduced by 20%.

4. hitbox problem just means the aoe isn't telegraphed well. it's more of a UI problem. are we now supposed to balance a game based on how poor a skill is telegraphed? actually tell that to warlock ult. how hard is it to tell how big is the aoe stun when the infernal is about to fall?

[Fistraiser]

conversion deserves to be on long cool down.
Any kind of summon units have been broken ever since the zoo meta with necrobook.
Summoned units have still never been properly balanced.
Summoned units abilities are still too strong especially due to auras and buffs that affect them and tower armor reduction items and skills.

[Artek [General]]

Originally posted by Tentacle Grape:

4. hitbox problem just means the aoe isn't telegraphed well. it's more of a UI problem. are we now supposed to balance a game based on how poor a skill is telegraphed? actually tell that to warlock ult. how hard is it to tell how big is the aoe stun when the infernal is about to fall?

What i was trying to say: Axe's call is one a time wonder. If he fails to get that - he either dies, or has to retreat and try again.
Enigma's BH continously denies the area by stunning anyone attempting to enter it. It also helps that Enigma actually technically casts it from a distance, which provides him with a small extra degree of safety. A small one, but still...
Wasn't at all complaining about visibility or anything. You just try to generally stay away from BH, if you can help it, WHICH IS THE POINT. Its not only a stun, but also an area denial, so that the survivors can't just come and save their hole'd mates easily, unless someone made a high value, long range stun counterpick like uh... Venge with a swap?... Disruptor teleporting the guy backwards?... Something among those lines.

[Will Bang]

I've at least once wiped out an entire 5 team when they were on our ancient with Black Hole Agh Shard + Refresher.

[修 -Alya-san- 修]

Originally posted by Artek General:

Originally posted by Tentacle Grape:

^

1. vengeful spirit. that's also a point and click stun. and that's not 15s cd.
2. dozen? its only 6. and again, JUSTIFY the big cooldown. not how "powerful" they are that they are worth that 35s cd. name me another skill, stun or nuke or summon, that has 35s cd.
3. pulse is good I admit, but that doesn't justify the 35s cd.
4. and by that logic, a 5man berserker's call would easily win a teamfight. and its very hard to comeback with it.

1. Its also only 1.7s duration. More of a damage nuke than a stun really.
If Enigma could spam Malefece - i imagine it could become quite frustrating, as counting for the 2 second pauses between bursts its technically an 8 seconds stun (again: some heroes have trouble taking actions between the bursts).

2. Don't know about 35, but Phoenix got 2 of his skills cooldown for 30 - the divebomb and the beam. Close enough. And only one of his skills is 20s. Its actually kinda frustrating to play him because of this...
I cannot say for certain what devs see in the ability for that long a cooldown, but seeing how eidolons seem to live for 40 seconds... I think its to encourage the player to actually use them and multiply them, not just spam the ability nilly willy? Again - you get crazy values from the guys if you use them well, so i don't really see a problem.
Lone Druid got his bear on 120 cooldown and its not even an ult.

3. It does. 10% MAX HP per second for 12 seconds in 600 radius? Crazy strong, more than justified.
Warlock has something similar with Upheaval and he also cooldowns for 35s.

4. Axe got 100 less range on the call and 1 second less of duration. Also enemies who escaped the initial call don't get called post-factum, while Blackhole works for the entire duration and it pretty much prevents some heroes from counter-attacking while the hole is active. I'm sure everyone in their life at least once had jumped with blink dagger in attempt to stun Enigma, only to get caught by the very edge of BH hitbox anyway.
Axe' kit also doesn't allow him to do anything else besides that. His ult is useless until someone is low and the hunger thing barely does anything past 25 minutes.

Abilities don't exist in a vacuum of being compared to each other, but they also exist within the context of their character's full kit. Enigma can do more than just black-holing, while Axe not really. Axe exists only to jump with the Call and then finish off the weakened enemies, Enigma can deny areas with Pulse, split-push by sending eidolons in another direction and he got a cute stun as a back up. So, he's designed as a high-risk, high-reward caster who uses his abilities rarely, but makes them count.
I'm uncertain what's his current meta status, maybe he is a little bit underpowered, but at best i could agree to reducing all his abilities by maybe 5 seconds, after that we risk breaking the character.

OP

[jokxay]

Originally posted by Tentacle Grape:

^

1. vengeful spirit. that's also a point and click stun. and that's not 15s cd.
2. dozen? its only 6. and again, JUSTIFY the big cooldown. not how "powerful" they are that they are worth that 35s cd. name me another skill, stun or nuke or summon, that has 35s cd.
3. pulse is good I admit, but that doesn't justify the 35s cd.
4. and by that logic, a 5man berserker's call would easily win a teamfight. and its very hard to comeback with it. and to add salt into that wound, berserker's call is lower than 35s cd. what's your justification now?

5 man bersekers call can kill axe quickly, where 5 man bh cant :D