CAN YOU PLEASE NERF SHADOW FIEND??

[Cant Stop Urself]

The hero was already good and now it's just broken. Slows in lanes and deals potencially infinite damage with razes. You can't even bkb after eul + ulti. Not to mention that it fears in AoE for more than 15 secs in the late game and deals +500 dmg with every raze. The hero is strong in every stage of the game and you know for sure it's going to stomp the lane. It's just stupid

[Deepbluediver]

His winrate is still below 50% at every bracket and only gets worse as the skill-level goes up. Seems to me that you just don't know how to deal with him.

[ЧPOG]

Could you name heroes who can lane vs Shadow Fiend effectively then?
I'm feeling too, that SF is a bit OP.

[Deepbluediver]

Originally posted by ЧPOG:

Could you name heroes who can lane vs Shadow Fiend effectively then?
I'm feeling too, that SF is a bit OP.

I think there's a difference between being "OP" and being "annoying to deal with in lane". I would say the same thing about a hero like Sniper- he should win most lane matchups handily, and is no fun to try and play against, but neither are many pro-teams picking him because of his lack of utility once the laning stage ends.

[Cant Stop Urself]

Originally posted by Deepbluediver:

Originally posted by ЧPOG:

Could you name heroes who can lane vs Shadow Fiend effectively then?
I'm feeling too, that SF is a bit OP.

I think there's a difference between being "OP" and being "annoying to deal with in lane". I would say the same thing about a hero like Sniper- he should win most lane matchups handily, and is no fun to try and play against, but neither are many pro-teams picking him because of his lack of utility once the laning stage ends.

Pro matches are way different than pubs. I have seen pub replays from pros always getting solo killed by Shadow Fiend in lane lvl 1. That's just absurd. Every... single... game. In our normal pubs, Shadow Fiend just stomps HEAVILY the mid lane and ends the game with a score of 25/0/14. Like, dude, wtf

[Ragnoraok]

Just dont fight Shadow Fiend....its that simple. SF has no way to safely tower dive you without several items online, so you should not be dying to him if you play close to tower. A Shadow Fiend who knows how to last hit will win lane most of the time, so make peace with that and don't feed him. At that point, I would focus more on ganking side lanes than contesting mid.

After the laning phase, SF is easily dealt with by getting Heaven's Halberd and using Abyssal Blade when he pops BKB. You can even get Silver's Edge to get rid of his passive damage boost.

You guys should be more outraged about Silencer who regularly gets above 54% winrate (across all rankings), who relatively has fewer counters until it is too late for it to matter...and even then Silencer scales extremely well throughout all stages of the game.

[Cant Stop Urself]

Originally posted by Ragnoraok:

Just dont fight Shadow Fiend....its that simple. SF has no way to safely tower dive you without several items online, so you should not be dying to him if you play close to tower. A Shadow Fiend who knows how to last hit will win lane most of the time, so make peace with that and don't feed him. At that point, I would focus more on ganking side lanes than contesting mid.

After the laning phase, SF is easily dealt with by getting Heaven's Halberd and using Abyssal Blade when he pops BKB. You can even get Silver's Edge to get rid of his passive damage boost.

You guys should be more outraged about Silencer who regularly gets above 54% winrate (across all rankings), who relatively has fewer counters until it is too late for it to matter...and even then Silencer scales extremely well throughout all stages of the game.

Don't fight SF. Just let him stay on your hill denying every single creep while you're in tower lv 2 scared of razes... Wait, that sounds like every game I have vs SF mid

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

Theres either a bug in coding, or a hack or exploit that allows for fear to be much longer than it should be. I posted about it after checking fear durations using combat logs. The numbers don't match to the tooltips, even with debuff amplification, and dumb things like a single line applying debuff and fear multiple times is how it currently works or at least in the game I was frustrated enough to check.

Another explanation could be dynamic difficulty adjustment. And if thats the case, this is a dead game for further insulting players with skill and manipulating them. This makes more sense than hackers did it.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/570/discussions/0/3828662662937807530/#c3828662662942095879 here are my numbers

[markiplier]

Hey guys dota 2 moderator here, just to let you know we do not plan on making any big hero changes moving forward. Shadow fiend will remain in his current state until valve pulls the plug on dota 2.

[Deepbluediver]

Originally posted by Just Farm':

Pro matches are way different than pubs. I have seen pub replays from pros always getting solo killed by Shadow Fiend in lane lvl 1. That's just absurd. Every... single... game. In our normal pubs, Shadow Fiend just stomps HEAVILY the mid lane and ends the game with a score of 25/0/14. Like, dude, wtf

OK, but then why on DotAbuff is SF's winrate below 50% in all brackets, decreasing as the skill-level goes up?
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta
The fact that a good player CAN win easily against a bad player does not mean that the hero they are using is OP. And as I said, "annoying to play against" is not the same as "OP".
Again with the Sniper comparison, I think Sniper needs a rework, specifically BECAUSE of the problem that he's a high-floor/low-ceiling hero. Maybe SF is the same, for now. I'd like to see how he does in the next big tournament before casting any final judgement though.

And I didn't directly try to answer the question posed earlier because I haven't played against that many SFs in my matches lately. Checking my most recent games, I see 3 with SF: 1 win, 1 loss, and 1 draw. And none of them are spectacular blowouts.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7069677617
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7069821260
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7068935536
I would expect melee-heroes to struggle against him, especially without support. If you expect to be laning against an SF, consider picking a strong ranged hero to counter, and ward like you would against a Riki so he can't get the drop on you.

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

well if heros are skill floor/ceiling, then maybe they should do the same for being able to draft those heros to prevent smurfing. Being able to not pick ARC or SF below Archon might not be that out of the question. You want full access to the hero pool, you can still get it outside ranked. They could also do it in the other direction where certain hero's couldn't be picked above a rank. No more snipers above legend or ancient maybe.

[Zagryzaec]

Originally posted by Just Farm':

The hero was already good and now it's just broken. Slows in lanes and deals potencially infinite damage with razes. You can't even bkb after eul + ulti. Not to mention that it fears in AoE for more than 15 secs in the late game and deals +500 dmg with every raze. The hero is strong in every stage of the game and you know for sure it's going to stomp the lane. It's just stupid

You do realize that if you casually press bkb anytime during eul it will activates immidiately after dropping, even before eul damage or any instant stun disable? The only problem sf can bait you by cancelling but you still can fight him after.

And even I was able to outdamage sf in 1 vs 1 on proper carry (terrorblade), so as soon as you pop bkb just lock him and kill him.

Although I accept he is quite strong and gave more than it should have.
Like why he even get fear that strong and long. Even disabler heroes often lose in duration.

[Terrorsaur]

Originally posted by ЧPOG:

Could you name heroes who can lane vs Shadow Fiend effectively then?
I'm feeling too, that SF is a bit OP.

broodmother ♥♥♥♥♥ on his face

[ЧPOG]

Originally posted by 🐴Stable Boy🐴:

Originally posted by ЧPOG:

Could you name heroes who can lane vs Shadow Fiend effectively then?
I'm feeling too, that SF is a bit OP.

broodmother ♥♥♥♥♥ on his face

Really? But he kills spiderlings with coils in 2 clicks..

[Ragnoraok]

Originally posted by Zagryzaec:

Originally posted by Just Farm':

The hero was already good and now it's just broken. Slows in lanes and deals potencially infinite damage with razes. You can't even bkb after eul + ulti. Not to mention that it fears in AoE for more than 15 secs in the late game and deals +500 dmg with every raze. The hero is strong in every stage of the game and you know for sure it's going to stomp the lane. It's just stupid

You do realize that if you casually press bkb anytime during eul it will activates immidiately after dropping, even before eul damage or any instant stun disable? The only problem sf can bait you by cancelling but you still can fight him after.

And even I was able to outdamage sf in 1 vs 1 on proper carry (terrorblade), so as soon as you pop bkb just lock him and kill him.

Although I accept he is quite strong and gave more than it should have.
Like why he even get fear that strong and long. Even disabler heroes often lose in duration.

How does SF lose against Terror Blade? How does any carry lose against Terror Blade who statistically is one of the worst performing carries across all ranks?

After SF lands his ultimate (which is easily accomplished with Scythe of Vyse), then he can effortlessly melt TB with autos and Razes. TB won't even be able to get off his sunder since SF can just use BKB and Sunder does not bypass Spell Immunity. If SF has refresher Orb, then TB literally stands no chance at all.

Although I do agree that SF is not a problematic character, or at least not moreso than other broken characters like Riki, Silencer, and Anti-Mage.

[YA BOI, SALACIOUS B. CRUMB]

SF mid is still broken, a simple raze combo forces you into either a complete retreat with no chance of farming or stacking consumables just to counter his razes. you don't even have to be melee, being a "short ranged" ranged hero against him is a death sentance.

Not to mention, SF can easily kill you on the firts minute with shadow razes if he just buys 1 mango. He effectively ramps in his damage far ahead of anything you can throw at him at any situation and if his team is somewhat competent, they will protect him above all else, forcing you into fights you cannot win.