Summoned creatures are too weak

[Floppa Caracal]

Like Wraith kings skeletts soldiers or Lycrans wolves
they are almost useless

Also is there a way to stop them from blocking you walking?? Thats annoying af.

[Deepbluediver]

Originally posted by No Vodka Language in All Chat TY:

Like Wraith kings skeletts soldiers or Lycrans wolves
they are almost useless

It's a difficult balance point because it would be easy for them to be too strong if they were much tougher. The point of it is to not simply spam summoned units to siege the enemy while you sit safely out of combat- you have to pick and choose when to use them, such as pushing a tower while you fight the enemy elsewhere.

Also is there a way to stop them from blocking you walking?? Thats annoying af.

Phase Boots lets you pass through them with the active ability- that's why it's often recommended for WK over Power Treads.

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

Lvl 8 is when you max level for summons. That's a super early powerspike that's impossible to also balance for late game.

Maybe they could do something like they did with neutral creeps buffing stats every 7.5 min, or giving higher ability levels at 15 and 30.

Or they could do like lone druid where the bear scales with hero level.

Right now in the current design space summons are early power spikes that fall off late game with some options to buff them with hero talents.
Creep domination got a huge buff with these changes (chen enchantress), maybe it's just a differentiation in zoo meta between summon and dominate

[Floppa Caracal]

They are useless when someone can kill many with one hit

[Zagryzaec]

Wraith king isn't even SUPPOSED to have summons or have reincarnation without mana. It's all was added on top of the old hero.

[Mirror]

i think an easy fix would be to let the summons scale with stats like illusions. illusions are broken as hell but they are balanced with the increased dmg they take. So do the same to summons and done deal. Problem is fixed, or at the very least it has become more balanced.

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

Originally posted by Judy:

i think an easy fix would be to let the summons scale with stats like illusions. illusions are broken as hell but they are balanced with the increased dmg they take. So do the same to summons and done deal. Problem is fixed, or at the very least it has become more balanced.

good Idea +1

[Deepbluediver]

Originally posted by Judy:

i think an easy fix would be to let the summons scale with stats like illusions. illusions are broken as hell but they are balanced with the increased dmg they take. So do the same to summons and done deal. Problem is fixed, or at the very least it has become more balanced.

That's not a bad idea, but IMO its OK if different mechanics play out differently in DotA.

As a previous commentor said, Summoned units often top out around level 8, when you max whatever ability summons them, but that's not entirely true. You can have talents that improve them, you can have items that improve them (such as auras or in LD's case by directly equipping them, etc), you can have indirect mechanics such as a larger mana-pool that allows you to summon them more frequently, etc etc etc.

Balancing summoned units (and illusions) can be tricky, but in either case I don't object to player-skill being a key in how effective they are, and I REALLY don't think it's a good idea for some heroes to be able to summon an army and just sit back in a safe zone while your minions do all the work. That's not a good playstyle either.

[Mirror]

Originally posted by Deepbluediver:

Originally posted by Judy:

i think an easy fix would be to let the summons scale with stats like illusions. illusions are broken as hell but they are balanced with the increased dmg they take. So do the same to summons and done deal. Problem is fixed, or at the very least it has become more balanced.

That's not a bad idea, but IMO its OK if different mechanics play out differently in DotA.

As a previous commentor said, Summoned units often top out around level 8, when you max whatever ability summons them, but that's not entirely true. You can have talents that improve them, you can have items that improve them (such as auras or in LD's case by directly equipping them, etc), you can have indirect mechanics such as a larger mana-pool that allows you to summon them more frequently, etc etc etc.

Balancing summoned units (and illusions) can be tricky, but in either case I don't object to player-skill being a key in how effective they are, and I REALLY don't think it's a good idea for some heroes to be able to summon an army and just sit back in a safe zone while your minions do all the work. That's not a good playstyle either.

you can do the same thing with summons as Lone Druid. If they are out of range from the main hero, they stop attacking. Mix that with the stat scale and you have a pretty balanced summon imo.

[Floppa Caracal]

Originally posted by Deepbluediver:

Originally posted by Judy:

i think an easy fix would be to let the summons scale with stats like illusions. illusions are broken as hell but they are balanced with the increased dmg they take. So do the same to summons and done deal. Problem is fixed, or at the very least it has become more balanced.

That's not a bad idea, but IMO its OK if different mechanics play out differently in DotA.

As a previous commentor said, Summoned units often top out around level 8, when you max whatever ability summons them, but that's not entirely true. You can have talents that improve them, you can have items that improve them (such as auras or in LD's case by directly equipping them, etc), you can have indirect mechanics such as a larger mana-pool that allows you to summon them more frequently, etc etc etc.

Balancing summoned units (and illusions) can be tricky, but in either case I don't object to player-skill being a key in how effective they are, and I REALLY don't think it's a good idea for some heroes to be able to summon an army and just sit back in a safe zone while your minions do all the work. That's not a good playstyle either.

Well thats what Arc Wardens do all the time

[Deepbluediver]

Originally posted by No Vodka Language in All Chat TY:

Well thats what Arc Wardens do all the time

Yes, and he can be very frustrating to play against for that reason. It might be OK to have the occasional hero like that, but I'm certainly not looking to have more copies of him.

[Charles: The High Dolphin]

Originally posted by No Vodka Language in All Chat TY:

Like Wraith kings skeletts soldiers or Lycrans wolves
they are almost useless

Also is there a way to stop them from blocking you walking?? Thats annoying af.

Say that to Warlock’s Golems or Visage’s Gargoyles or heck, the freaking Bear.

[Deepbluediver]

Originally posted by Charles: The High Dolphin:

Say that to Warlock’s Golems or Visage’s Gargoyles or heck, the freaking Bear.

Yes, they are all slight variations on a theme- I'm not looking to make every hero like Arc Warden, that's my point.

[Charles: The High Dolphin]

Originally posted by Deepbluediver:

Originally posted by Charles: The High Dolphin:

Say that to Warlock’s Golems or Visage’s Gargoyles or heck, the freaking Bear.

Yes, they are all slight variations on a theme- I'm not looking to make every hero like Arc Warden, that's my point.

And you are right. Summoned units do not have the same utility but still are crazy strong. The only scaling necessary is to have them scaled up properly to jungle creeps and towers.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Any time there are too many ways to empower summons, we get the 'zoo meta'. IceFrog clearly doesn't want that to return, which is why he straight-up removed Necro Book.

[:D]

skeletons useless ? know when and how to use em. they can win you games