Dota 2
RadCon One 2023 年 3 月 12 日 下午 12:04
What do you think about Muerta's in-game classification?
Personally I'm not seeing how they managed to justify counting her as a 3 bar carry like the likes of spectre, void, and medusa. Her 2 abilities that scale are her worse (late game anyway) version of medusa's splitshot, and her ult, and her ult is completely bypassed by a bkb. I feel like she is more of an early-mid game carry or semi-carry than a late game hyper-carry.
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正在显示第 46 - 60 条,共 65 条留言
RadCon One 2023 年 3 月 15 日 下午 1:40 
引用自 Ragnoraok
引用自 RadCon One
A carry is not about a quick victory at all, a carry is about having a late game advantage, and I am baffled that you don't seem to understand this. Just because someone is doing damage does not mean they are a carry.

The fact that you have even vaguely confused being a carry with being an early game powerhouse shows you don't understand what one is. Go look at spectre / medusa / void and tell me how strong you think they are early game. Now realize the game gives them the highest carry classification.

Im going to be nice here and assume you are suffering from a language barrier and you are thinking of a CORE (a category that contains non-suppory roles) and not a CARRY (a specific type of late game core).

Valve specifically defines carry as a character that benefits the most from a significant gold advantage. You may not agree with this, but this is this definition is what defines their in-game classification.

Late-game is not a criteria of being a carry since some carries come online early with only a few key items (Luna, Ursa, Axe), whereas some carries require a lot farm and exp to become dominant (medusa, Void, Spectre).
And I suppose you have that significant gold net worth early game in the laning phase?

Take a look at how they rate the carries, the stronger they are late, the more bars, because they benefit even more from having gold, which takes even longer to accrue more of, i.e. you go to late game.

You weirdly supported my argument while thinking you were attacking it (with words I myself have already posted on here no less).
最后由 RadCon One 编辑于; 2023 年 3 月 15 日 下午 1:43
Ragnoraok 2023 年 3 月 15 日 下午 1:54 
引用自 RadCon One
引用自 Ragnoraok

Valve specifically defines carry as a character that benefits the most from a significant gold advantage. You may not agree with this, but this is this definition is what defines their in-game classification.

Late-game is not a criteria of being a carry since some carries come online early with only a few key items (Luna, Ursa, Axe), whereas some carries require a lot farm and exp to become dominant (medusa, Void, Spectre).
And I suppose you have that significant gold net worth early game in the laning phase?

Take a look at how they rate the carries, the stronger they are late, the more bars, because they benefit even more from having gold, which takes even longer to accrue more of.

Well yea, which is why last-hitting, stacking camps, and good jungle rotations are essential for any carry. Also, getting kills expedites the process.

They don't rate carries based on how strong they are late-game. They base them on how much their efficacy is dependent on gold and items. For example, Sniper, Razor, Dragon Knight, and Chaos Knight are typically picked because they have good early and mid game, yet they have 2-3 carry rankings. Characters like Medusa and especially characters like Void and Anti-Mage are heavily dependent on items to be useful which is why they typically peak late-game.
最后由 Ragnoraok 编辑于; 2023 年 3 月 15 日 下午 1:56
RadCon One 2023 年 3 月 15 日 下午 2:35 
引用自 Ragnoraok
引用自 RadCon One
And I suppose you have that significant gold net worth early game in the laning phase?

Take a look at how they rate the carries, the stronger they are late, the more bars, because they benefit even more from having gold, which takes even longer to accrue more of.

Well yea, which is why last-hitting, stacking camps, and good jungle rotations are essential for any carry. Also, getting kills expedites the process.

They don't rate carries based on how strong they are late-game. They base them on how much their efficacy is dependent on gold and items. For example, Sniper, Razor, Dragon Knight, and Chaos Knight are typically picked because they have good early and mid game, yet they have 2-3 carry rankings. Characters like Medusa and especially characters like Void and Anti-Mage are heavily dependent on items to be useful which is why they typically peak late-game.
You are trying very hard to avoid the obvious here, which is that gold isn't present early game, it is present later in the game, and despite what you are weirdly trying to claim here, no, you are not swimming in gold early game.

The characters above are carries because they are strong with items, which need gold, which needs time.

Chaos knight or the others being carries has 0 to do with having a decent early gane what-so-ever. An easier early game would obviously make them more popular, but it has 0 to do with a designation of "carry".
最后由 RadCon One 编辑于; 2023 年 3 月 15 日 下午 2:37
Alpha Omega Pepega 2023 年 3 月 15 日 下午 11:02 
You should really stop arguing about it. There was enough time to figure out the hero for pro players. And if you go to pro tracker its clear that Muerta does not fit a core role,coz she just does not win as any core role. She has a pretty high support winrate tho.
I dont think there are any reason of trying to find a defenition of carry,that will fit her perfectly,because what it all comes to is being able to win games.And she cant.
Zagryzaec 2023 年 3 月 15 日 下午 11:09 
引用自 Alpha Omega Pepega
You should really stop arguing about it. There was enough time to figure out the hero for pro players. And if you go to pro tracker its clear that Muerta does not fit a core role,coz she just does not win as any core role. She has a pretty high support winrate tho.
I dont think there are any reason of trying to find a defenition of carry,that will fit her perfectly,because what it all comes to is being able to win games.And she cant.
Enough time? There was pretty much just enough time to get aquinted with hero, nothing more.

Pretty much both of her skills are skillshots and you will need hundreds of hours to master those.

And we didn't even talked about her gameplay.

And naturally she will have low winrate as a new popular hero. Tons of people who don't even play good pick her against people who pick their 10000 hours main. Such a surprise she can lose this match.
ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ 2023 年 3 月 15 日 下午 11:26 
引用自 Zagryzaec
引用自 Alpha Omega Pepega
You should really stop arguing about it. There was enough time to figure out the hero for pro players. And if you go to pro tracker its clear that Muerta does not fit a core role,coz she just does not win as any core role. She has a pretty high support winrate tho.
I dont think there are any reason of trying to find a defenition of carry,that will fit her perfectly,because what it all comes to is being able to win games.And she cant.
Enough time? There was pretty much just enough time to get aquinted with hero, nothing more.

Pretty much both of her skills are skillshots and you will need hundreds of hours to master those.

And we didn't even talked about her gameplay.

And naturally she will have low winrate as a new popular hero. Tons of people who don't even play good pick her against people who pick their 10000 hours main. Such a surprise she can lose this match.
it won't take that long to master the skill shot. Its a much faster projectile, and its easy to hit if your aim is on. I don't see how its jukable like arrow or hook.
Zagryzaec 2023 年 3 月 15 日 下午 11:36 
It's not about jukable. It's about hitting opponent.

For example in my games muerta constantly was making enemies run from our ganks instead of toward us.

And you asking why she loses.
Alpha Omega Pepega 2023 年 3 月 16 日 上午 3:36 
引用自 Zagryzaec
引用自 Alpha Omega Pepega
You should really stop arguing about it. There was enough time to figure out the hero for pro players. And if you go to pro tracker its clear that Muerta does not fit a core role,coz she just does not win as any core role. She has a pretty high support winrate tho.
I dont think there are any reason of trying to find a defenition of carry,that will fit her perfectly,because what it all comes to is being able to win games.And she cant.
Enough time? There was pretty much just enough time to get aquinted with hero, nothing more.

Pretty much both of her skills are skillshots and you will need hundreds of hours to master those.

And we didn't even talked about her gameplay.

And naturally she will have low winrate as a new popular hero. Tons of people who don't even play good pick her against people who pick their 10000 hours main. Such a surprise she can lose this match.
Whole your point is defeated by the fact,that muerta pos 4 and 5 actually have 51% winrate. And for this 2 positions her skillshots are main attractions. Thats her carry winrate we are talking about.
Im not sure if you know this,but ppl who play on a high level. Dota is all they do. They dont need month to figure out 1 hero in the game they were playing for years already. Not many ppl overall need it.
I really dont know how low your game understaning should be to keep defending this hero.
P.S. According to you every high complexity hero should have low winrate,because your teammates can always ♥♥♥♥ something up.
最后由 Alpha Omega Pepega 编辑于; 2023 年 3 月 16 日 上午 3:42
Zagryzaec 2023 年 3 月 16 日 上午 3:44 
Because pos4-5 are more adaptable in the game.

Muertas skills scale with items and she needs a lot of those to be efficient.

That's make her carry player.
Her ult depends on attack power and attack speed and her third skill scale with and demand attack speed and attack power.
Zagryzaec 2023 年 3 月 16 日 上午 3:50 
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/morphling
Terrorblade - 44% winrate - definitely not a carry.
Templar assasin 44% winrate - never played as carry
Nature's prophet - 45% winrate - guess who wasn't popular carry lately

And muerta has higher winrate than each of those.
She is only 0,5% lower winrate than morphling.
Guess who has highest winrate?
Spectre. Right - the fat piece of meat that kills everyone around passively.
Alpha Omega Pepega 2023 年 3 月 16 日 上午 5:45 
引用自 Zagryzaec
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/morphling
Terrorblade - 44% winrate - definitely not a carry.
Templar assasin 44% winrate - never played as carry
Nature's prophet - 45% winrate - guess who wasn't popular carry lately

And muerta has higher winrate than each of those.
She is only 0,5% lower winrate than morphling.
Guess who has highest winrate?
Spectre. Right - the fat piece of meat that kills everyone around passively.
Cool stats. What point are you making even? That thouse heroes are trash too?
Tb has a 48% winrate as pos 1 on protracker,Ta has 50,Np has 52.Its very nice of you to link a crusader winrate. Surely they know how to play heroes at their best.
But even if it would be 44 as you claim.If Tb has 44% winrate as carry and 50% winrate as a support in a good amount of games,it would make him a support. Thats how the game works.
Meanwhile Muerta has sub 50% winrate in every skill bracket there is as pos 1,2 and 3.
最后由 Alpha Omega Pepega 编辑于; 2023 年 3 月 16 日 上午 5:48
76561199058767668 2023 年 3 月 16 日 上午 7:31 
引用自 Ragnoraok
引用自 RadCon One
A carry is not about a quick victory at all, a carry is about having a late game advantage, and I am baffled that you don't seem to understand this. Just because someone is doing damage does not mean they are a carry.

The fact that you have even vaguely confused being a carry with being an early game powerhouse shows you don't understand what one is. Go look at spectre / medusa / void and tell me how strong you think they are early game. Now realize the game gives them the highest carry classification.

Im going to be nice here and assume you are suffering from a language barrier and you are thinking of a CORE (a category that contains non-suppory roles) and not a CARRY (a specific type of late game core).

Valve specifically defines carry as a character that benefits the most from a significant gold advantage. You may not agree with this, but this is this definition is what defines their in-game classification.

Late-game is not a criteria of being a carry since some carries come online early with only a few key items (Luna, Ursa, Axe), whereas some carries require a lot farm and exp to become dominant (medusa, Void, Spectre).

low bracket definition of carry = dragging match duration as long as possible so they can play carry with 6 slotted versus opponent carry with 6 slotted.

if their opponent not 6slotted yet, they will continue jungle till their opponent 6slotted also. they want fair play with 6slotted vs 6slotted. That is a huge respect vibe there in low bracket gaming.
最后由 海南鱼饭 编辑于; 2023 年 3 月 16 日 上午 7:34
RadCon One 2023 年 3 月 16 日 下午 4:37 
引用自 Ragnoraok

Valve specifically defines carry as a character that benefits the most from a significant gold advantage. You may not agree with this, but this is this definition is what defines their in-game classification.

Late-game is not a criteria of being a carry since some carries come online early with only a few key items (Luna, Ursa, Axe), whereas some carries require a lot farm and exp to become dominant (medusa, Void, Spectre).

low bracket definition of carry = dragging match duration as long as possible so they can play carry with 6 slotted versus opponent carry with 6 slotted.

if their opponent not 6slotted yet, they will continue jungle till their opponent 6slotted also. they want fair play with 6slotted vs 6slotted. That is a huge respect vibe there in low bracket gaming.

Well not everyone can know the game i suppose, and so ill-informed takes like this are bound to happen.

If you don't want to go late you don't pick a hyper-carry period. If you want to end asap you won't pick a carry at all but all pushers/nukers/gankers such as lina and nightstalker who only hit 1 bar (barely carries) on the carry meter. Good luck ending asap with medusa/spectre/void who all have 3 stars (most carry-like, aka hyper-carries).
LoveU 2023 年 3 月 17 日 上午 1:47 
I think it can be both carry and support.
Charles: The High Dolphin 2023 年 3 月 17 日 上午 2:05 
I kinda like her and I think she is a rather strong option for midlane. And to the people saying that bib counters her:

-She has her whole team behind her
-She can wait out the end of the bkb to use her ult
-She still hits like a truck thanks to her passive
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发帖日期: 2023 年 3 月 12 日 下午 12:04
回复数: 65