What do you think about Muerta's in-game classification?

[RadCon One]

Personally I'm not seeing how they managed to justify counting her as a 3 bar carry like the likes of spectre, void, and medusa. Her 2 abilities that scale are her worse (late game anyway) version of medusa's splitshot, and her ult, and her ult is completely bypassed by a bkb. I feel like she is more of an early-mid game carry or semi-carry than a late game hyper-carry.

[EEPYUMI]

she dead i think but not sure did not read lore

[Zagryzaec]

Originally posted by RadCon One:

Personally I'm not seeing how they managed to justify counting her as a 3 bar carry like the likes of spectre, void, and medusa. Her 2 abilities that scale are her worse (late game anyway) version of medusa's splitshot, and her ult, and her ult is completely bypassed by a bkb. I feel like she is more of an early-mid game carry or semi-carry than a late game hyper-carry.

then you dont know what carry is.
She can attack two targets ignoring both armor and etherial while bieng completely invincible but require lots of farm to get attack speed and damage to finish most targets during her fear control and invincibility time.
Unlike mortred she crits every second hit (or more) but twice as weak (or into two targets.)

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by Zagryzaec:

Originally posted by RadCon One:

Personally I'm not seeing how they managed to justify counting her as a 3 bar carry like the likes of spectre, void, and medusa. Her 2 abilities that scale are her worse (late game anyway) version of medusa's splitshot, and her ult, and her ult is completely bypassed by a bkb. I feel like she is more of an early-mid game carry or semi-carry than a late game hyper-carry.

then you dont know what carry is.
She can attack two targets ignoring both armor and etherial while bieng completely invincible but require lots of farm to get attack speed and damage to finish most targets during her fear control and invincibility time.
Unlike mortred she crits every second hit (or more) but twice as weak (or into two targets.)

It seems YOU don't understand what a hyper-carry is my friend, If you can shut the hero down with one of the most commonly bought mid game items, a BKB, you are not a hyper-carry, as your ability to scale late game is countered by said common item. She doesn't crit either, she does a crappier version of Medusa's splitshot as was literally stated in the comment above.

Templar Assassin and Nightstalker also get better attack speed and damage lategame too, but they are not hyper-carries, they are average carries to semi-carries at best so you really dropped the ball here with such a definition.

The moment she ults you just bkb and get to ignore her for up to 8 seconds at that point as she has no way to deal physical damage, and she is forced to watch on helplessly as her teammates die. Early-mid game she can rely on the enemy cores not having a BKB, and she can rely on enemy supports staying vulnerable for awhile.

[Ragnoraok]

Originally posted by RadCon One:

Originally posted by Zagryzaec:

then you dont know what carry is.
She can attack two targets ignoring both armor and etherial while bieng completely invincible but require lots of farm to get attack speed and damage to finish most targets during her fear control and invincibility time.
Unlike mortred she crits every second hit (or more) but twice as weak (or into two targets.)

It seems YOU don't understand what a hyper-carry is my friend, If you can shut the hero down with one of the most commonly bought mid game items, a BKB, you are not a hyper-carry, as your ability to scale late game is countered by said common item. She doesn't crit either, she does a crappier version of Medusa's splitshot as was literally stated in the comment above.

Templar Assassin and Nightstalker also get better attack speed and damage lategame too, but they are not hyper-carries, they are average carries to semi-carries at best so you really dropped the ball here with such a definition.

The moment she ults you just bkb and get to ignore her for up to 8 seconds at that point as she has no way to deal physical damage, and she is forced to watch on helplessly as her teammates die. Early-mid game she can rely on the enemy cores not having a BKB, and she can rely on enemy supports staying vulnerable for awhile.

How does BKB counter her ultimate? Her ultimate is an undispellable self-stimulant so you can't take her out of it.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by Ragnoraok:

Originally posted by RadCon One:

It seems YOU don't understand what a hyper-carry is my friend, If you can shut the hero down with one of the most commonly bought mid game items, a BKB, you are not a hyper-carry, as your ability to scale late game is countered by said common item. She doesn't crit either, she does a crappier version of Medusa's splitshot as was literally stated in the comment above.

Templar Assassin and Nightstalker also get better attack speed and damage lategame too, but they are not hyper-carries, they are average carries to semi-carries at best so you really dropped the ball here with such a definition.

The moment she ults you just bkb and get to ignore her for up to 8 seconds at that point as she has no way to deal physical damage, and she is forced to watch on helplessly as her teammates die. Early-mid game she can rely on the enemy cores not having a BKB, and she can rely on enemy supports staying vulnerable for awhile.

How does BKB counter her ultimate? Her ultimate is an undispellable self-stimulant so you can't take her out of it.

She can't even right click you and deal damage after you pop bkb as her right click and spell damage doesn't pierce bkb as I stated in the comment you are replying to, you CAN still damage her too, you just can't right click her.

[Ragnoraok]

Originally posted by RadCon One:

Originally posted by Ragnoraok:

How does BKB counter her ultimate? Her ultimate is an undispellable self-stimulant so you can't take her out of it.

She can't even right click you and deal damage after you pop bkb as her right click and spell damage doesn't pierce bkb as I stated in the comment you are replying to, you CAN still damage her too, you just can't right click her.

I see now. But the main thing that makes her ult so good is that its a 1-directional ethereal effect for 8 seconds. This allows her to 1v1 nearly and hyper carry in the game. You need magical damage to kill her in this state, but she can get bkb herself and 1v1 any magical-oriented carry too.

Muerta is arguably the most versatile and strongest overall carry in the game.

[dNewGets]

useless update! copied from other games! desperate dota!

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by Ragnoraok:

Originally posted by RadCon One:

She can't even right click you and deal damage after you pop bkb as her right click and spell damage doesn't pierce bkb as I stated in the comment you are replying to, you CAN still damage her too, you just can't right click her.

I see now. But the main thing that makes her ult so good is that its a 1-directional ethereal effect for 8 seconds. This allows her to 1v1 nearly and hyper carry in the game. You need magical damage to kill her in this state, but she can get bkb herself and 1v1 any magical-oriented carry too.

Muerta is arguably the most versatile and strongest overall carry in the game.

Her gunslinger passive can make her a bit of a pain in lane if she takes a single level of it and gets a couple potshots on you while last hitting, but late game it is a much crappier version of medusa's splitshot, and arguably a number of other ranged heroes talents/shards or melee heroes cleaves / splash damage modifiers. Again, this is just late game, which is relevant since my position isn't that gunslinger/muerta sucks, but that she just isn't hyper-carry material.

Deadshot is a nice nuke/disable (if it ricochets) with a relatively low cd, that can absolutely save an ally's/your life as they are being attacked since she can force the enemy to put decent distance between the 2 (as long as they don't bkb), but it lacks the same level of usefulness if you are just trying to kill someone as a stun or even a root should you bounce it, as then they will reduce your DPS by forcing you to run after them, meaning that often just straight shooting and using it as a nuke better in that scenario.

The calling can be pretty awesome and versatile in my opinion: It can be used to kite melee heroes, force units to reposition, chase enemies down, or even get of a silence if positioned right... but like everything else in her kit is countered by bkb.

The ethereal effect is nice, but having the most common major item in the game shut down ALL your sources of damage by choosing to use it means it isn't necessarily the greatest option, this means in practice she isn't going to 1v1 any late game carry as they will have the extreme edge here as her ult is effectively left with only 2.65 seconds of time left (8 - 0.35 sec transform time and - 5 seconds lowest lv bkb). Couple that with just about any form of disarm or stun and she will pretty much waste her entire ult against you if she doesn't catch you without bkb.

In some ways she is similar to troll warlord ult-wise in that both of their ults will make them harder to kill (or impossible in the case of troll without Axe) while augmenting damage, but troll warlord doesn't care if you pop a bkb (his entire kit can pierce it at lv 25, while most of it still does before hand), while she is made almost totally useless by it. She can use her ult to escape unlike him (pop it and just tp out), but no one is going to fear her the same way they would a Spectre, Medusa, Void, or, as already mentioned, Troll Warlord among others. Medusa, Void, and Troll Warlord will outright win a fight against her with no difficulty if evenly farmed, while Spectre will just kill the rest of her team will having a blademail popped.

By all means, she is a cool character, I'm just saying she doesn't deserve the 3 bar status displayed that implies she is a late game heavy weight on the same level as the above. She feels more like a mid-grade carry with an easier laning phase than most true hyper-carries.

I see her being likely to perform well in low-mid level pubs but not going anywhere pro-scene wise myself. I could be wrong, but I'm not yet convinced.

[Ragnoraok]

Originally posted by RadCon One:

Originally posted by Ragnoraok:

I see now. But the main thing that makes her ult so good is that its a 1-directional ethereal effect for 8 seconds. This allows her to 1v1 nearly and hyper carry in the game. You need magical damage to kill her in this state, but she can get bkb herself and 1v1 any magical-oriented carry too.

Muerta is arguably the most versatile and strongest overall carry in the game.

Her gunslinger passive can make her a bit of a pain in lane if she takes a single level of it and gets a couple potshots on you while last hitting, but late game it is a much crappier version of medusa's splitshot, and arguably a number of other ranged heroes talents/shards or melee heroes cleaves / splash damage modifiers. Again, this is just late game, which is relevant since my position isn't that gunslinger/muerta sucks, but that she just isn't hyper-carry material.

Deadshot is a nice nuke/disable (if it ricochets) with a relatively low cd, that can absolutely save an allies life if she is near as they are being attacked since she can force them to put decent distance between the 2 (as long as they don't bkb), but it lacks the same level of usefulness if you are just trying to kill someone as a stun or even a root should you bounce it, as then they will reduce your DPS by forcing you to run after them, meaning that often just straight shooting and using it as a nuke better in that scenario.

The calling can be pretty awesome and versatile in my opinion: It can be used to kite melee heroes, force units to reposition, chase enemies down, or even get of a silence if positioned right... but like everything else in her kit is countered by bkb.

The ethereal effect is nice, but having the most common major item in the game shut down ALL your sources of damage by choosing to use it means it isn't necessarily the greatest option, this means in practice she isn't going to 1v1 any late game carry as they will have the extreme edge here as her ult is effectively left with only 2.65 seconds of time left (8 - 0.35 sec transform time and - 5 seconds lowest lv bkb). Couple that with just about any form of disarm or stun and she will pretty much waste her entire ult against you if she doesn't catch you without bkb.

In some ways she is similar to troll warlord ult-wise in that both of their ults will make them harder to kill (or impossible in the case of troll without Axe) while augmenting damage, but troll warlord doesn't care if you pop a bkb (his entire kit can pierce it at lv 25, while most of it still does before hand), while she is made almost totally useless by it. She can use her ult to escape unlike him (pop it and just tp out), but no one is going to fear her the same way they would a Spectre, Medusa, Void, or, as already mentioned, Troll Warlord among others. Medusa, Void, and Troll Warlord will outright win a fight against her with no difficulty if evenly farmed, while Spectre will just kill the rest of her team will having a blademail popped.

By all means, she is a cool character, I'm just saying she doesn't deserve the 3 bar status displayed that implies she is a late game heavy weight on the same level as the above. She feels more like a mid-grade carry with an easier laning phase than most true hyper-carries.

I see her being likely to perform well in low-mid level pubs but not going anywhere pro-scene wise myself. I could be wrong, but I'm not yet convinced.

How can Troll or Void beat Muerta? She completely invalidates their kit with her ultimate. alone. Void without his ult is one of the worst carries in the game, and Muerta can easily burst Void down within the 8 seconds that her ult is active. Troll can't even auto attack when Muerta ults, so he can't do anything for 8 seconds.

Medusa would fare better but she has no ways of locking down Muerta, and Muerta should win a 1v1 fight if she has Satanic. Basically, you fight Medusa head on, let her get you to about 30% life, ult, use satanic to get your health back, and then take it from there.

Spectre is the only viable counter, but Spectre's laning phase is very risky and it is easy to shut him down early enough.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by Ragnoraok:

How can Troll or Void beat Muerta? She completely invalidates their kit with her ultimate. alone. Void without his ult is one of the worst carries in the game, and Muerta can easily burst Void down within the 8 seconds that her ult is active. Troll can't even auto attack when Muerta ults, so he can't do anything for 8 seconds.

Medusa would fare better but she has no ways of locking down Muerta, and Muerta should win a 1v1 fight if she has Satanic. Basically, you fight Medusa head on, let her get you to about 30% life, ult, use satanic to get your health back, and then take it from there.

Spectre is the only viable counter, but Spectre's laning phase is very risky and it is easy to shut him down early enough.

In 1v1s:

Troll can just pop bkb and get her down to the roughly 3 seconds left of ult, at which point troll can pretty safely wait her out as she is doing 0 damage to him while he is BKBed, and she likely can't kill him in 3 seconds, especially since if she doesn't buy an mkb she will be missing 60% of her shots. Regardless of if he is forced to ult early or completely waits her out though, he has won at that point as he has better damage and survivability, on top of having CC on her in the form of slows, ensnares, and stuns. Troll losing a 1 v 1 just isn't happening here unless she is way better farmed.

If Muerta never pops ult fearing bkb negation and Troll never pops bkb or ult fearing needing them to negate Muerta then Troll wins the fight anyway. He will lock her down and kill her pretty quick preventing her from kiting.

Void can probably outright kill her in chrono, but if he notices that hasn't been happening then all he has to do is wait for her to ult and then use bkb to counter followed by, much like troll, waiting for her ult to either end or for things to get dangerous followed by popping it and then proceeding to beat on her since he will win a right click war by quite a bit at that point.

If Muerta never pops ult fearing bkb negation and Void never pops bkb or ult fearing needing them to negate Muerta then Void wins the fight anyway. He will lock her down and kill her pretty quick preventing her from kiting.

Medusa doesn't even need to wait for ult, she can just run in and pop it forcing muerta to turn her back to her or get demolished in the meantime unless she pops ult... at which point they have basically traded ults at that point and medusa has far better survivability, or she can do the same thing as the 2 above (better chance of winning than the 1st option) and wait for muerta to pop her ult and then just bkb while holding onto her own ult until bkb expires.

If Muerta never pops ult fearing bkb negation and medusa never pops bkb or ult fearing needing them to negate muerta then Medusa wins the fight anyway. Skadi is built on her basically every game and she out-ranges you so you won't be kiting her at all, and you will likely both have a Satanic, but since medusa has a Skadi cutting your regen almost in half combined with her shield making it so you do next to no damage and don't heal much, she will out-survive you by quite a bit.

Spectre actually has the toughest time of the bunch arguably as her plan really is just to kill Muerta's whole team in retaliation for giving her a hard time, which is obviously moot in a 1 v 1, and only gets worse when you realize Spectre is the most likely to skip BKB out of the bunch. Assuming that scenario so as to spice things up:

This means her strategy is probably just going to be non-comittedly engage while looking for an advantage. Spectre will probably rush you with a manta and force you to pop ult followed by just running away until it ends and then haunting back in on you once it is over and beating you up with her haunt(s) / surviving illusions. If you let her get away just about any of her most common item combos involving some mix of HoTs, Skadi, Blademail, and Abyssal will make the coming fight a pain that she will almost certainly win. She will have less attack speed than the others on this list however, so at least your calling skill might help you a little here. She will win, but unlike the others she likely won't choose to "manfight you" in the beginning.

Edit: After limited testing with both heroes lv 30 with common bought items and no neutrals (I didn't have a partner and had to play both sides myself), Muerta did in fact lose to all of the above carries. She performed pretty well against medusa in the scenario where no one pops ult due to needing to save it to counter the other (the scenario where she was arguably closest to victory), but she lost solidly to the other 3 by attempting that. Troll warlord and Void can both beat her even without BKB however even if she ults with correctly timed Ults of their own and use of their own Satanics. Spectre performed much better in all tests than I was expecting.

[鐚檸檬]

She's amazing if you play her as support.
I wouldn't recommend her as pos-1.

[dNewGets]

trash update!

[Alpha Omega Pepega]

I dont think there is a reason to agrue,when she is literally has lowest winrate in the game.
Trash hero. Cant be played as support coz her 3rd and ulti are useless for that. And cant be played as carry,coz she just sucks.Deals no damage,cant farm ♥♥♥♥,has bad basic stats.

[Ragnoraok]

Originally posted by RadCon One:

Originally posted by Ragnoraok:

How can Troll or Void beat Muerta? She completely invalidates their kit with her ultimate. alone. Void without his ult is one of the worst carries in the game, and Muerta can easily burst Void down within the 8 seconds that her ult is active. Troll can't even auto attack when Muerta ults, so he can't do anything for 8 seconds.

Medusa would fare better but she has no ways of locking down Muerta, and Muerta should win a 1v1 fight if she has Satanic. Basically, you fight Medusa head on, let her get you to about 30% life, ult, use satanic to get your health back, and then take it from there.

Spectre is the only viable counter, but Spectre's laning phase is very risky and it is easy to shut him down early enough.

In 1v1s:

Troll can just pop bkb and get her down to the roughly 3 seconds left of ult, at which point troll can pretty safely wait her out as she is doing 0 damage to him while he is BKBed, and she likely can't kill him in 3 seconds, especially since if she doesn't buy an mkb she will be missing 60% of her shots. Regardless of if he is forced to ult early or completely waits her out though, he has won at that point as he has better damage and survivability, on top of having CC on her in the form of slows, ensnares, and stuns. Troll losing a 1 v 1 just isn't happening here unless she is way better farmed.

If Muerta never pops ult fearing bkb negation and Troll never pops bkb or ult fearing needing them to negate Muerta then Troll wins the fight anyway. He will lock her down and kill her pretty quick preventing her from kiting.

Void can probably outright kill her in chrono, but if he notices that hasn't been happening then all he has to do is wait for her to ult and then use bkb to counter followed by, much like troll, waiting for her ult to either end or for things to get dangerous followed by popping it and then proceeding to beat on her since he will win a right click war by quite a bit at that point.

If Muerta never pops ult fearing bkb negation and Void never pops bkb or ult fearing needing them to negate Muerta then Void wins the fight anyway. He will lock her down and kill her pretty quick preventing her from kiting.

Medusa doesn't even need to wait for ult, she can just run in and pop it forcing muerta to turn her back to her or get demolished in the meantime unless she pops ult... at which point they have basically traded ults at that point and medusa has far better survivability, or she can do the same thing as the 2 above (better chance of winning than the 1st option) and wait for muerta to pop her ult and then just bkb while holding onto her own ult until bkb expires.

If Muerta never pops ult fearing bkb negation and medusa never pops bkb or ult fearing needing them to negate muerta then Medusa wins the fight anyway. Skadi is built on her basically every game and she out-ranges you so you won't be kiting her at all, and you will likely both have a Satanic, but since medusa has a Skadi cutting your regen almost in half combined with her shield making it so you do next to no damage and don't heal much, she will out-survive you by quite a bit.

Spectre actually has the toughest time of the bunch arguably as her plan really is just to kill Muerta's whole team in retaliation for giving her a hard time, which is obviously moot in a 1 v 1, and only gets worse when you realize Spectre is the most likely to skip BKB out of the bunch. Assuming that scenario so as to spice things up:

This means her strategy is probably just going to be non-comittedly engage while looking for an advantage. Spectre will probably rush you with a manta and force you to pop ult followed by just running away until it ends and then haunting back in on you once it is over and beating you up with her haunt(s) / surviving illusions. If you let her get away just about any of her most common item combos involving some mix of HoTs, Skadi, Blademail, and Abyssal will make the coming fight a pain that she will almost certainly win. She will have less attack speed than the others on this list however, so at least your calling skill might help you a little here. She will win, but unlike the others she likely won't choose to "manfight you" in the beginning.

Edit: After limited testing with both heroes lv 30 with common bought items and no neutrals (I didn't have a partner and had to play both sides myself), Muerta did in fact lose to all of the above carries. She performed pretty well against medusa in the scenario where no one pops ult due to needing to save it to counter the other (the scenario where she was arguably closest to victory), but she lost solidly to the other 3 by attempting that. Troll warlord and Void can both beat her even without BKB however even if she ults with correctly timed Ults of their own and use of their own Satanics. Spectre performed much better in all tests than I was expecting.

I tested Muerta against Faceless Void and Troll Warlord and she absolutely demolished them. I have no idea what parameters you are using, but they are nowhere near able to take her on unless they catch the drop on her, build several disables like Abyssal blade and Orchid, as well as several items that purge cc like BKB and manata syle. So basically a carry has to not build damage and build reactively just to survive against Muerta while Muerta beats them with her ult.

As stated before, Void must be able to catch Muerta in his ult to be able to stand a chance, but any sane Muerta player will cast her ult (or hurricane pike) as soon as she sees Void is close. If Void successfully baits Muerta to use her ult prematurely, then Muerta can use glepnir and hold Void in place long enough to burst him. If Void uses BKB, then he still loses against her as Muerta still has some time left on ult, and Muerta can use Hurricane pike to effortlessly kite Void. Even if you take all items out of equation Muerta stomps hard, except Muerta does better if you use her ult after Void ults.

With Troll, there is no way that he beats her under any circumstance besides the discrepancy in levels being massively in favor of Troll. Muerta's ultimate lasts longer than Troll's ultimate, so right off the bat Troll literally cannot deal meaningful damage for 8 seconds. It doesn't matter if both use their ults at the beginning, end, or any point during the altercation, Muerta wins very easily.

Medusa also loses, because the main source of her damage, at least 1v1 is her auto attacks. Muerta can use her ult at any time to force Medusa to ult, in which case Muerta should just continue to face and attack Medusa. Why? Because Medusa turns people to stone for only 3 seconds and Muerta's ult lasts 8 seconds. Again, with Satanic and double procs of her passive Muerta can outlast Medusa.

Spectre does the best against her if you get Blade Mail, in which case Spectre will be returning a large portion of damage back to Muerta. Medusa and Spectre can actually outlive Muerta's ultimate, but unlike Medusa, Spectre has more 1v1 burst. This is because Spectre can use his ultimate, which basically gives him a clone that deals more AA damage than he does if you use his talent tree that makes illusions deal 30% extra damage. The clone also gets his passive abilities. He can also use his Astral step to create a second clone to further increase damage.

Lastly, Muerta's passive is not a worse splitshot. Her passive essentially increases her output by a quarter and it synergizes with items like satanic meaning that she gets double the heals and procs malestrom twice as much. Muerta is considered a carry mainly because of her passive and ult.

[Alpha Omega Pepega]

Also,i have no idea what are ppl talking about. why are you comparing 1 v 1 carry duels. Thats not how game works.