Don't see the value in Vengeful Spirit

[Pabalabab]

So I mostly play support (pretty much always) and do, if I say so, a decent job as support.

Now vengeful is a support/position 5 that is generally very highly rated as a 'safe' and 'excellent' pick by skilled players but I really don't see the value.

Let's look at her skills:

Q - basic single target stun that is always said to be super good as it is 'reliable' and 'super high damage'. Sure it's OK but it has short range and she doesn't have the mana pool/mana regen to use it a lot. It's also a very short duration, even at level 4 and is only ever single target.

I'd take even Wraith King's or Sven's stun any day.

W - Minus armour and vision. Decent ability that works well.

E - Completely overrated I think. 36% damage increase only on base damage. Considering you will have maximum 2 real right clickers where one may do 120(stat) + 140(added) damage your aura adds 43 damage which is in total a 15% damage increase. Not great IMO unless you have very stat based carries (Morphling).

R - One of those abilities. Great when you're ahead, terrible if behind from what I've seen. You go swap their squishiest target into your team. You die instantly to them and they counter initiate and wipe your team. If your ahead it's fine but then you don't really need it anyway. Can be used to save teammates to feed yourself instead. Only for your teammate to run back in and die anyway.


In essence you have a bad stun, decent minus armour, a bad aura and a situational ultimate. Where is the value? I really want to see it.

[Yozh]

I hadn't thought much of her for a long time-also I have played support more than other roles. I think it lies in the ability to alter the positioning in a team fight given over-lapping auras and abilities, somewhat like how stuns alter the timing of team fights such that it results in a great advantage or poses a disadvantage.

I think you are right in that she comes online earlier in the game and can really make a difference there. Now with Hurricane Pike, I am not certain but it really seems to go well with her ult-for pursuit and isolation, but it depends on the situation. I have not played her a lot but I expect that Desolator combined with her armor reduction ability is one thing people like. Who knows?

[Rabbit 🍌]

I totally agree with you, but I think that he stun is better than you say early game. It can bring some heroes to 2/3 of their hp and has a decent duration for early game. Tp mid and stun can make a huge difference, but late game a single target stun of that sort is for sure almost useless...

About her aura it's mostly for pushing as it affects all sort of creeps in your team.

It oftens happen that I see supports having huge killing sprees because they just never die and gets 10 kill in a game even if they have the lowest xpm and gpm because they support, but to a vengefull spirit support it just never happens...

[Pabalabab]

There's just much better picks IMO that are even safer (need almost no coordination). Open up with a Lion and you have a fantastic stun, fantastic hex and an amazing ultimate. All while staying on the map forever with Tranqs/Mana drain.

Also thinking about it sometimes 'reliable' stuns aren't good at all. You can't stun what you can't see if they are unit target only. You can't stop jukes/TP/Invis heroes till you see them. A small but real advantage ground target stuns can have.

Or pick a SS and have 8.5 seconds of single target disable. OK shackles is channeled but it's a 50% uptime. Then serpent wards are decent for teamfights and great for tower push.

Or Ogre Magi with his potential, very underrated nuking power. Did you know a 4x multicast on his fireblast will do 880 magic damage and unrefined fireblast 4x multi cast 1100 damage! Even 2x multicasts hit hard.

[Snakes27049]

Originally posted by j-meikle:

So I mostly play support (pretty much always) and do, if I say so, a decent job as support.

Now vengeful is a support/position 5 that is generally very highly rated as a 'safe' and 'excellent' pick by skilled players but I really don't see the value.

Let's look at her skills:

Q - basic single target stun that is always said to be super good as it is 'reliable' and 'super high damage'. Sure it's OK but it has short range and she doesn't have the mana pool/mana regen to use it a lot. It's also a very short duration, even at level 4 and is only ever single target.

I'd take even Wraith King's or Sven's stun any day.

W - Minus armour and vision. Decent ability that works well.

E - Completely overrated I think. 36% damage increase only on base damage. Considering you will have maximum 2 real right clickers where one may do 120(stat) + 140(added) damage your aura adds 43 damage which is in total a 15% damage increase. Not great IMO unless you have very stat based carries (Morphling).

R - One of those abilities. Great when you're ahead, terrible if behind from what I've seen. You go swap their squishiest target into your team. You die instantly to them and they counter initiate and wipe your team. If your ahead it's fine but then you don't really need it anyway. Can be used to save teammates to feed yourself instead. Only for your teammate to run back in and die anyway.


In essence you have a bad stun, decent minus armour, a bad aura and a situational ultimate. Where is the value? I really want to see it.

imho you are missing the point of venge, namely her ult and semi-support status. If you can't ult w/o dieing you're doing it wrong (very wrong) and being able to shift to right click dmg build at will can save games if said decision is made in time. Besides your EXTIMATED slot-free 43 dmg bonus is on par with an item worth 4000-5000 gold.

[Rabbit 🍌]

Originally posted by Snakes27049:

Originally posted by j-meikle:

So I mostly play support (pretty much always) and do, if I say so, a decent job as support.

Now vengeful is a support/position 5 that is generally very highly rated as a 'safe' and 'excellent' pick by skilled players but I really don't see the value.

Let's look at her skills:

Q - basic single target stun that is always said to be super good as it is 'reliable' and 'super high damage'. Sure it's OK but it has short range and she doesn't have the mana pool/mana regen to use it a lot. It's also a very short duration, even at level 4 and is only ever single target.

I'd take even Wraith King's or Sven's stun any day.

W - Minus armour and vision. Decent ability that works well.

E - Completely overrated I think. 36% damage increase only on base damage. Considering you will have maximum 2 real right clickers where one may do 120(stat) + 140(added) damage your aura adds 43 damage which is in total a 15% damage increase. Not great IMO unless you have very stat based carries (Morphling).

R - One of those abilities. Great when you're ahead, terrible if behind from what I've seen. You go swap their squishiest target into your team. You die instantly to them and they counter initiate and wipe your team. If your ahead it's fine but then you don't really need it anyway. Can be used to save teammates to feed yourself instead. Only for your teammate to run back in and die anyway.


In essence you have a bad stun, decent minus armour, a bad aura and a situational ultimate. Where is the value? I really want to see it.

imho you are missing the point of venge, namely her ult and semi-support status. If you can't ult w/o dieing you're doing it wrong (very wrong) and being able to shift to right click dmg build at will can save games if said decision is made in time. Besides your EXTIMATED slot-free 43 dmg bonus is on par with an item worth 4000-5000 gold.

Actually sacred relic offer 60 bonus damage for 3800 gold and doesn't do much if it's just a sacred relic...

About her ultimate I think j-meikle was talking about suiciding to save the carry with a god like spree. For example swap your team mate and take his place in chrono/black hole or simply put your self in a really bad situation so it's impossible to survive.

[Snakes27049]

Originally posted by Rabbitking78:

Originally posted by Snakes27049:

imho you are missing the point of venge, namely her ult and semi-support status. If you can't ult w/o dieing you're doing it wrong (very wrong) and being able to shift to right click dmg build at will can save games if said decision is made in time. Besides your EXTIMATED slot-free 43 dmg bonus is on par with an item worth 4000-5000 gold.

Actually sacred relic offer 60 bonus damage for 3800 gold and doesn't do much if it's just a sacred relic...

About her ultimate I think j-meikle was talking about suiciding to save the carry with a god like spree. For example swap your team mate and take his place in chrono/black hole or simply put your self in a really bad situation so it's impossible to survive.

Again that dmg is bonus/slot free and sacred relic is still a 3800 gold item and one with the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ buildup of the entire game. Try picking venge and pair her with a drow...
Swap can be used to "save" carries but is far more valuable if used to iniciate on the enemy team w/o dieing in doing so. The problem is that to do so you have to farm a blink and if possible a force staff thus playing venge as an hard supp means wasting her potential because you will struggle gaining said items with a proper timing.
Venge is not the ideal hard supp plain and simple and needs some farm to be used at her maximum, the same goes with heroes like axe, tide, enigma ecc.

[.]

Her 3rd skill is extremely effective with Luna, Drow and PA.

[Pabalabab]

Originally posted by Snakes27049:

Originally posted by j-meikle:

So I mostly play support (pretty much always) and do, if I say so, a decent job as support.

N.........minus armour, a bad aura and a situational ultimate. Where is the value? I really want to see it.

imho you are missing the point of venge, namely her ult and semi-support status. If you can't ult w/o dieing you're doing it wrong (very wrong) and being able to shift to right click dmg build at will can save games if said decision is made in time. Besides your EXTIMATED slot-free 43 dmg bonus is on par with an item worth 4000-5000 gold.

Erm, I'm pretty sure Desolator that gives +50 damage and -7 armour (that works with team's attacks and on structures) costs 3500 gold.

It's almost as if 2 of her skills (wave and aura) are the same as having a desolator.


Scythe of Vyse is 5650 gold and is worse than Lion's hex both duration and CD wise. Sure it has stat bonuses but supports won't make use of them.

[♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥]

She has:
1. Stun
2. - Amor + Vision
3. + Dame
4. Nice ulti - very useful particularly your enemy team has Enigma :D

[Snakes27049]

Originally posted by j-meikle:

Originally posted by Snakes27049:

imho you are missing the point of venge, namely her ult and semi-support status. If you can't ult w/o dieing you're doing it wrong (very wrong) and being able to shift to right click dmg build at will can save games if said decision is made in time. Besides your EXTIMATED slot-free 43 dmg bonus is on par with an item worth 4000-5000 gold.

Erm, I'm pretty sure Desolator that gives +50 damage and -7 armour (that works with team's attacks and on structures) costs 3500 gold.

It's almost as if 2 of her skills (wave and aura) are the same as having a desolator.


Scythe of Vyse is 5650 gold and is worse than Lion's hex both duration and CD wise. Sure it has stat bonuses but supports won't make use of them.

Key words:
1)SLOT FREE dmg bonus (aura)
2)SEMI-SUPP
3)HUGE iniciation capabilities (with right items and player skill)
4)Reliable stun (minor pro)
For the 3rd time you can play venge as an hard lane supp but it is a wasted pick (there are indeed better heroes who can fill that role). Play her as a semi supp/roaming oriented hero and be creative with ult and now you can see her true strenght.

[Kazuma Kiryu]

It's like all of her abilities are good and you are saying they are bad. Wow.

[.]

If you ever played rubick support, you'll realize how strong and effective vengeful is.