Please fix invoker for the love of god

[Charles: The High Dolphin]

Just fix this bloody hero man, he is so much BS it's not even funny to play against him anymore. Too much damage, cc, utility and overall usefullness all game long compared to almost every other hero in the game. If this is balanced then this is a freaking joke, he deserves a nerf so bad.

[Skeith]

İlk olarak Charles the rapey Dolphin tarafından gönderildi:

And also he wasn't THAT much of a pain 1 or 2 patches ago.

One last thing, you must be kidding me. Read this gamepedia, i mean EVERYTHING about him.
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Invoker/Changelogs

You must be from a parallel universe. He WAS a pain prior to 6.86 patches. 6.86 and after brought huge nerf hammers on his skills overall compared to any other patches. Peace out.

[Frogged]

The only thing that is OP about invoker is ice wall.

[post apocalypse otter boi]

You forget one thing though. Invoker takes skills to play.

[post apocalypse otter boi]

also 46% winrate is not oP
http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/invoker

[Archmage MC]

The only nerf he needs is that Urn of Shadows and Orb of Venom no longer proc Cold Snap.

[Charles: The High Dolphin]

İlk olarak Forsaken tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Charles the rapey Dolphin tarafından gönderildi:

And also he wasn't THAT much of a pain 1 or 2 patches ago.

One last thing, you must be kidding me. Read this gamepedia, i mean EVERYTHING about him.
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Invoker/Changelogs

You must be from a parallel universe. He WAS a pain prior to 6.86 patches. 6.86 and after brought huge nerf hammers on his skills overall compared to any other patches. Peace out.

You don't have to be a complete ♥♥♥♥ and insult people to make your point by the way. That and others have pointed out the current issues with the character like that op Venom/urn proc on Coldsnap, wich is completly OP, the fact that the forge spirits are still too much (thoses guys are almost better than Warlock's golems for crying out loud!) and the duration of that ice wall for instance.

The character does not need to be removed, i'll admit as much, that he is fun and requires a little bit of being used to but heck, the skill threshold to be effective with him is a lot lower than anyone dares to admit it. Having each of his spells on par or better than other heroes with similar things in their kit is quite unbelievable. To be fair the character either needs to be reworked a LOT (by making him go back to something similar to his old dota ways with more, ultra specialized, spells and maybe giving him 3 spell slots instead of 2) or uping the risk/reward skill cap even further. Heck, i wouldn't mind to have his cooldown reduced a bit but this character always has been a balancing nightmare.

[SilverCrow]

OP you ignored any valid points about invoker and supports any claims that invoker is "very good". Might as well rename the thread to "Invoker OP". You want to know his weakness?

1. He's ultra weak pre level 9. Why don't you play some supports/offlaners and gank that magus? You delay his midas and you control the pace of the game.
2.He also can only use 3 spells before he get aghs, same as every hero. Once he uses a couple of them, he's useless. You've never considered that he is limited by his invoke cd pre-aghs.
3. He takes a lot of his time to farm. He gets drums/bots/aghs before actually becoming a threat. So what do you do? Play aggressive. Take over his jungle, ward it all over. You see him on the map? Go gank with smoke.

As much as I also hate Invoker, he's weak currently. The nerf to forge spirits really reduced his early strength to dominate the lane. Thats why now most of them just farm up items before joining fights. If you are up against the euls-combo invoker, he's ♥♥♥♥. You should be ashamed if you lost to this type of player.

[Charles: The High Dolphin]

İlk olarak SilverCrow tarafından gönderildi:

OP you ignored any valid points about invoker and supports any claims that invoker is "very good". Might as well rename the thread to "Invoker OP". You want to know his weakness?

1. He's ultra weak pre level 9. Why don't you play some supports/offlaners and gank that magus? You delay his midas and you control the pace of the game.
2.He also can only use 3 spells before he get aghs, same as every hero. Once he uses a couple of them, he's useless. You've never considered that he is limited by his invoke cd pre-aghs.
3. He takes a lot of his time to farm. He gets drums/bots/aghs before actually becoming a threat. So what do you do? Play aggressive. Take over his jungle, ward it all over. You see him on the map? Go gank with smoke.

As much as I also hate Invoker, he's weak currently. The nerf to forge spirits really reduced his early strength to dominate the lane. Thats why now most of them just farm up items before joining fights. If you are up against the euls-combo invoker, he's ♥♥♥♥. You should be ashamed if you lost to this type of player.

A lot of valid points here, yes he is weak early on, yes he needs time to farm and yes he is limited by the cd on both his spells and the invol. But does that even mater in the long run? Considering his kit, why does he need a lower skill cap than earth spirit to be effective? Why do all of his spells outclass similar abilities even at a low level if you comit a bit to it in your skill build?

That and one point still stands, don't forget that we're talking about a guy viable on every lane, at every job, with any item and with a built in global, a slow, creep spawning abilities (if they wanted to cripple the forge they would have nerfed the stackable armor degen by the way, thoses things still melt people early on), a GOOD purge, insane aoe, mana burn, single target stuns, multiple target stuns, an invis and buffs. If you give all of this, ok....but don't make thoses spells on par or better than the whole kit of other heroes! Invoker is not fun to play with, nor against and the people playing them are annoying because they always act like the hero: All high and mighty even when they get stomped.

Oh and i agree the eul combo is complete crap, don't understand how people die to that one (well since i play a lot of sups with eul themselves it's never an issue for my ass anyway <<)

[Arze]

Simple
Support buy wards
Get decent lockdown heroes. Pressure him early.

Maybe you are having problems. Is because you act like machete and fight voker one on one like a stupid badass when you have FOUR allies that can help.
Srsly wtf happened to teamwork? O.o

[Skeith]

İlk olarak Charles the rapey Dolphin tarafından gönderildi:

You don't have to be a complete ♥♥♥♥ and insult people to make your point by the way.

Insult? I insulted you because I said you are from a parallel universe and corrected you because you don't know what you are talking about? This sounds more like you got butthurt because you were wrong than me insulting you lol. If you get insulted by people stating points against your statements aka Criticism don't complain on public forums and expect not to get criticism. Keep to yourself if you can't handle being corrected or criticized.

Lower skill threhold? Explain to the people what you mean by that. You mean he is very easy to play, learn and use effectively compared to heroes like BS, riki, Drow,slark,ember? That's YOUR point of view. Not the fact his skills need practice, well timing, prediction to land effectively except few target based skill like cold snap. You don't need that on right clicker hitters at all. So what are you talking about? I am clueless. It took me about more than 100 games to effectively to do the combos invoker needs to do but right clicker hitters...Not even a quarter of games of I played as invoker and I am already better than an invoker.

Issues:

• Cold snap procing on orb of venom, urn OR to be more precise over the time damages like viper poison, kunka torrent, AA's ulti, veno's everything.
  This is simply because cold snap procs only when you do damage of over 10. So you mean you want a nerf of cold snap like this : Make cold snap procs only when damage is over 100. This means cold snap will no longer proc by simple melee from a hero who has damage less than 100. You can't get this much damage early in the game, atleast not invoker.
  
• Forge spirits are still better than warlock golems.
  Are they really? They are WEAKER, they do less damage, they don't cleave. It's like saying necrominicon is stronger than warlock's golems. Oh i am sure necrominicon is, delete that or nerf please. In what scenario is forge spirits stronger? I can only imagine you standing their taking every single hit by that. They are so slow at moving just like golems.
  
• Icewall duration being too long.
  This i can agree on, it's long and could use a nerf.

You have just been clearly ignoring everything people are saying and has this utter undeniable hate for this hero. Just remove him from dota and it will stop this suffering of yours. You are just like the typical people complaining about heroes that are invisible being "OP" too hard to counter etc when they are not.

[SilverCrow]

No, all his spells are ♥♥♥♥ at early levels except for sunstrike, cold snap and alacrity. His emp barely does any damage, tornado have short distance (really short), metoer same as tornado, etc. He's not viable on any other lane than mid. He's the most level dependent hero in the game as all his skills scale. If he's not mid and he's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on you, you and your team are the problem.

All your points about his OPness are when he's higher leveled. And certain heroes are better as the game goes on, including Invoker. There's no problem with that. Invoker are also one of the higher skill cap heroes whereby he needs to have muscle memory for invoking spells quickly and also decision making on spells/actions. What you should do is focus on early game where he's absolute ♥♥♥♥ and take map control.

If I have to say about stupidly OP spell in the late game, it'd be PA's dagger. The hero itself is fine, but god forbid you are a support and a dagger 1 hit you from nowhere. To counter her, I choose tanky support/offlaner so she can't snowball. Same principle against Invoker, pick a bit tankier hero and run him down mid.

[stardenburdenhardenbart]

If you don't know how to counter a certain hero it doesn't always mean that a hero is overpowered. Most of the time its the player's fault for being stupid.

[Charles: The High Dolphin]

İlk olarak Forsaken tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Charles the rapey Dolphin tarafından gönderildi:

You don't have to be a complete ♥♥♥♥ and insult people to make your point by the way.

Insult? I insulted you because I said you are from a parallel universe and corrected you because you don't know what you are talking about? This sounds more like you got butthurt because you were wrong than me insulting you lol. If you get insulted by people stating points against your statements aka Criticism don't complain on public forums and expect not to get criticism. Keep to yourself if you can't handle being corrected or criticized.

Lower skill threhold? Explain to the people what you mean by that. You mean he is very easy to play, learn and use effectively compared to heroes like BS, riki, Drow,slark,ember? That's YOUR point of view. Not the fact his skills need practice, well timing, prediction to land effectively except few target based skill like cold snap. You don't need that on right clicker hitters at all. So what are you talking about? I am clueless. It took me about more than 100 games to effectively to do the combos invoker needs to do but right clicker hitters...Not even a quarter of games of I played as invoker and I am already better than an invoker.

Issues:

• Cold snap procing on orb of venom, urn OR to be more precise over the time damages like viper poison, kunka torrent, AA's ulti, veno's everything.
  This is simply because cold snap procs only when you do damage of over 10. So you mean you want a nerf of cold snap like this : Make cold snap procs only when damage is over 100. This means cold snap will no longer proc by simple melee from a hero who has damage less than 100. You can't get this much damage early in the game, atleast not invoker.
  
• Forge spirits are still better than warlock golems.
  Are they really? They are WEAKER, they do less damage, they don't cleave. It's like saying necrominicon is stronger than warlock's golems. Oh i am sure necrominicon is, delete that or nerf please. In what scenario is forge spirits stronger? I can only imagine you standing their taking every single hit by that. They are so slow at moving just like golems.
  
• Icewall duration being too long.
  This i can agree on, it's long and could use a nerf.

You have just been clearly ignoring everything people are saying and has this utter undeniable hate for this hero. Just remove him from dota and it will stop this suffering of yours. You are just like the typical people complaining about heroes that are invisible being "OP" too hard to counter etc when they are not.

Ok dude, this is pointless because none of us is going to admit we're in the wrong. You can say whatever you want, i won't stop thinking that invoker is an annoying little bugger played by a specific kind of player whom i can't stand and that he has TOO MUCH going on for him. And you won't stop trying to counter everything i say because that's what you do and i gladly admit that you have a great understanding of the game. I am not the best player around, never will be and if i opened it was just to see at first if some people had the same feeling as i did on this particular hero.

Oh and on the point of the skill cap, i was talking about heroes like Visage or Earth spirit whom are harder to play in my opinion for a lower payoff in the mid/lategame. For the cold snap you have to admit that 10 damage is pretty ridiculous and that i makes the spell open to some early abuse with the correct items.

For the forge spirit part, think about it. He can spam them earlier, they have a rather large pool of health, an attack that shouldn't be taken lightly and an armor debuf that stacks. That you have to deal with invoker himself to make things worse. They can push like crazy and melt heroes fast if he uses the cold snap on top of them. And he doesn't even need any item to take you out with this! So yeah, he has a ♥♥♥♥ early, yes but as soon as he starts getting even a few levels the hero is a nightmare to deal with because of how unbalanced he is. He is quite litterally the ONLY hero in the whole game i can't stand man, the only and he has been pissing me off since i started dota 2.

You too must have at least one hero you can't stand to play against, considering what i usually play it's painfull to have to deal with this kind of bullcrap especially with how poor the game's matchmaking is both ranked and unranked (without a 5 man stack anyway).

[HASHIRO]

has anyone mentioned that Invoker needs a realllllllllllyyyyy deep understanding and variable of playing?

I'm a 5k9 player and I'm telling you I can own any 3k or 4k games with Puck, Tinker, and so other mid heroes but I can hardly say Invoker.

why?
not because I don't understand the hero or not good at it, I actually am, but this hero depends so much on your teammates. Like literally.

Starting movement speed of 285, base attack damage of 40, etc. etc.
This hero is a total piece of ♥♥♥♥ way from beginning until he atleast has his Aghanim's Scepter and Lvl 16.

and unlike Tinker, or Puck, this hero requires like i said a lot of understanding in matter of skills symphony, with the 2 heroes i mentioned earlier, they are both very independent and basically limitless, especially Tinker.
but with Invoker you need disablers or crowd control on your team, you need a babysitter earlier in the game, a reserved TP for your supports to come to mid for help, lots of observer wards, etc etc etc.

Try playing an invoker with no crowd control / disabler in your team

having a good position and nice combos are nearly impossible to do.

[Skeith]

İlk olarak Charles the rapey Dolphin tarafından gönderildi:

For the forge spirit part, think about it. He can spam them earlier, they have a rather large pool of health, an attack that shouldn't be taken lightly and an armor debuf that stacks. That you have to deal with invoker himself to make things worse. They can push like crazy and melt heroes fast if he uses the cold snap on top of them. And he doesn't even need any item to take you out with this!

Forge spirits are still not as strong as you claim them to be. Sure it does reduce armor and is useful in combination with skills like coldsnap / other stuns or slows like icewall, rod of atos. HP high on forge spirits ? if your argument is they are hard to kill..are you playing a creep with base damage of 10? Individually his skills are not strong. Invoker is a spell combo hero.

İlk olarak Charles the rapey Dolphin tarafından gönderildi:

So yeah, he has a ♥♥♥♥ early, yes but as soon as he starts getting even a few levels the hero is a nightmare to deal with because of how unbalanced he is. He is quite litterally the ONLY hero in the whole game i can't stand man, the only and he has been pissing me off since i started dota 2.

You too must have at least one hero you can't stand to play against, considering what i usually play it's painfull to have to deal with this kind of bullcrap especially with how poor the game's matchmaking is both ranked and unranked (without a 5 man stack anyway).

As soon as starts getting few levels... STOP. RIGHT. THERE. This is true for all carry heroes who scale well into late game like invoker. Invoker's versatile and is a unique hero who can perform well in various roles due to his wide arsenal of spells but this doesn't mean he is overpowered to the point you can't play against him.

A hero I hate to play against.... Let's see here...A fed or fat , Ember, Clinkz, LC, Alchemist, Ursa, Slark. You just can't get away from them and BKB doesn't help it but not invoker.