Question about denying, and why it makes any sense

[Hemlock]

As someone who played the original DOTA mod (Specifically only Allstars), and, League of Legends, I was interested in this game due to its complexity in game mechanics, and seeing how heroes evolved from the mod/custom map... Until I saw denying...

Whenever I see people complain about denying, the response is "Go play LOL", which blows my mind... Are you trying to say you honestly think the only difference between the two games is the ability to deny? Are you that dumb or unperceptive? There are a LOT of game mechanics that are different between the two games.

The concept of denying really bugs me, because, it makes no sense in terms of story, nor does it seem very fun for the person having all their CS taken away.
In other MOBAs, you deny the enemy CS by forcing them into their tower, so the tower gets last hits, and pushing them away from minions by harassing them... Not killing your own team's minions causing the enemy to just, not get the last, because... You were there?
Additionally, denying towers just seems... REALLY DUMB... Like, in what situation does it make sense to destroy your own defences? And how is it fair that because someone is there, your team doesn't get rewarded for taking an objective?
And finally, there's denying yourself... No
Just ♥♥♥♥ing no
Stop
This is a whole new level of "Why?"
This seems like such a stupid mechanic, taking away an enemies kill/gold/reward because you managed to commit suicide before they could kill you? WHAT? You're dead, because of them. You wouldn't have commited suicide if it wasn't for them. They are the cause of your death. They brought you down low enough, caught you out of position, and won the fight. They outskilled you/outplayed you. They did everything right, and... They don't get gold because you killed yourself? I get it for Techies, because they're suicide bombing, dealing damage to enemies. I get that... But, for someone like Pudge? Why? That makes no sense.

Additionally, the ability for some characters to DENY THEIR TEAMMATES?
So, you're trying to say, you could have some super great plan, be about to escape or turn the fight around, and survive, then your teammate just goes "Nah" and kills you, sending you back to the respawn screen, making you lose your unreliable gold, and just in general ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ you off... Why is that a good mechanic?

I'm not complaining... I just want a genuine reason to give this game a chance instead of sticking to one of many other MOBAs, including the original mod, all of which don't have this mechanic that seemingly injects artificial skill and very real frustration into the game...

Also, I wouldn't mind a story explanation for this game that has its story much more present in gameplay than most other MOBAs, to have these heroes commiting suicide and killing their soldiers to stop the enemy from dealing the killing blow...

[Yuna]

You have some interesting points and honestly in my opinion, Pudge being able to deny himself makes sense since his rot kills him slowly but even if you don't get a kill long as he is out of the way for a few seconds least he is not getting XP or kills.

As for denying your own creeps/towers it's pretty good as it stop the enemy getting money from them also denying is pretty good for your supports to get since they don't really have a way of getting money since you take the kills from enemy creeps.

Sorry if this isn't what you wanna hear just thought I'd give you my opinion.

[mimizukari]

it's a level of skill ceiling. people say go play LOL because if you can't deal with the extra little skill checks DotA has, you'll be a detriment to your team and your enemies will get farmed up way more than you.

And denial of teammates can only be done when your teammate is under a constant tick damage per second skill that lasts 15-16 seconds, such as venomous gale, shadow strike, doom, or Phoenix during SuperNova.

Why is it a good mechanic? BECAUSE IT'S A SKILL CHECK. You have to skillfully get the last hit with all factors considered, and you can ONLY DO IT with auto attack, nothing else helping you, while opponent has a myriad of ways to deal with things, and if you get that teammate deny, they preserve their killstreak and will thank you all the way to high heaven.

You don't need a story explanation for skill checks, it's a video game with an unreachable skill ceiling, which is why we have different winners every year... Just like Tekken 7.

[Duchess Minty]

It's a strategical thing, if you're about to lose a tower anyways why shouldn't you be able to take the satisfaction of destroying it and most of their gold bounty away from them? Same with creeps really, they still get exp out of it but not as much so you're not completely shutdown unlike how it used to be.

[Hemlock]

Originally posted by Phoenix Wright:

it's a level of skill ceiling. people say go play LOL because if you can't deal with the extra little skill checks DotA has, you'll be a detriment to your team and your enemies will get farmed up way more than you.

And denial of teammates can only be done when your teammate is under a constant tick damage per second skill that lasts 15-16 seconds, such as venomous gale, shadow strike, doom, or Phoenix during SuperNova.

Why is it a good mechanic? BECAUSE IT'S A SKILL CHECK. You have to skillfully get the last hit with all factors considered, and you can ONLY DO IT with auto attack, nothing else helping you, while opponent has a myriad of ways to deal with things, and if you get that teammate deny, they preserve their killstreak and will thank you all the way to high heaven.

You don't need a story explanation for skill checks, it's a video game with an unreachable skill ceiling, which is why we have different winners every year... Just like Tekken 7.

How is it skill to kill your own tower? How is it skill to commit suicide instead of letting enemies kill you?
Also, literally every single other MOBA has last hitting... Literally, every, single, one
I'm not talking about last-hitting
I'm talking about denying
It doesn't seem like something super skilled... It seems like a dumb game mechanic that I'd still find stupid even if I mastered it. It's not a matter of "It's skill based and I can't do it"
It's a matter of "I find it to be a dumb mechanic, skill based or not, that takes away from the game". The game seems to be a lot more complex than League in a lot of good ways, and characters don't costs upwards of 20$ per.
I get Lady Mint saying "It's a strategical thing"
I get "Denying" for the sake of holding your minion wave closer to your tower (I understand its purpose, but, I still don't like it existing)
I don't get how it's something that should punish the enemy player and reward you with additional benefits ON TOP of putting the minion wave closer to your safer area, or keeping it in said safe area
You're already putting the situation in your favour... Why do you need extra incentive on top of that? Why do you get rewarded with extra XP for killing something that was fighting FOR you?
Lets use blocking your minion wave by standing in front of it as an example. It is a lot less stupid of a way to strategically put the situation in your favor, because it just puts the situation in your favor. That's it
You have put the fight in a location closer to a place that is safe for you.
That's why I think denying is a stupid thing
For minions, it's rewarding you for putting the situation in your favour... Further snowballing you further than you already would have...
For suicide, it's rewarding you for doing something just outright STUPID.
And for denying teammates, it's rewarding you for doing the equivalent of teamkilling to killsteal an enemy... Imagine if in CounterStrike, your teammate was about to die from a molotov, and you shot them in the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ face... WHY WOULD THAT BE A GOOD THING?

[mimizukari]

It is incredibly skilled, it can make or break the game. Being a good denier in the middle lane can lead to snowballing earlier if your opponent isn't well versed. Everything that adds a meaningful mechanic increases skill ceiling and makes the game more enjoyable to both play and watch.

[MUSA]

git gud kid

[Water Ｖａｐｏｒ Merchant]

If your profile pic is a furry your opinion doesn't count

[Hemlock]

Originally posted by Phoenix Wright:

It is incredibly skilled, it can make or break the game. Being a good denier in the middle lane can lead to snowballing earlier if your opponent isn't well versed. Everything that adds a meaningful mechanic increases skill ceiling and makes the game more enjoyable to both play and watch.

No
No it doesn't make it more entertaining to watch
And, it is not skill based to kill your towers, your teammates or yourself
Additionally, killing your own minions isn't even that skilled... Nor should you get rewarded for putting the situation in your favour... You're already putting the situation in your favour... Would it not be more skill based to have to set up the situation in your favour and actually have to capitalize on it, instead of just getting rewarded? It's like getting rewarded for setting up something, or preparing for something
Like getting free gold for making a strategy... You've already set up the situation to work out in your favour... WHY DO YOU GET FREE STUFF AND PUNISH THE ENEMY FOR THAT??? You're already just about to do that in a few seconds... So you get extra reward for both preparing and the reward for actually doing it? Why???

Originally posted by DAD LEE SWAGGER:

git gud kid

Wow, that's sure contributing to the post
You clearly read everything I said
You obviously read the part where I said "It doesn't seem like something super skilled... It seems like a dumb game mechanic that I'd still find stupid even if I mastered it. It's not a matter of "It's skill based and I can't do it"
It's a matter of "I find it to be a dumb mechanic, skill based or not, that takes away from the game". "

Originally posted by Water Ｖａｐｏｒ Merchant:

If your profile pic is a furry your opinion doesn't count

Ouch, the edge
Wow, so cool. You clearly are an intelligent human being...

[Duchess Minty]

Originally posted by ThatGuyFromThatPlace:

Why do you get rewarded with extra XP for killing something that was fighting FOR you?

You don't, you get 20% of the gold bounty for denying if it's a lane creep which is 5-8 gold per deny at best and absolutely nothing if it's a hero or player controlled unit.

[Tea Lady]

Its just a taste thing, some people like the mechanic, some don't.

[Disturbed Immortalized]

Here are my opinions:

As others have mentioned, denying is also a skill. Every player should learn how to last hit, and denying is a counter to that. A counter to denying is using skills (not all heroes have the luxury to do this) to kill the creeps (or what you call minion) earlier than it would be killed by your normal attack. If you stack the denies against your opponent, you will have level advantage and that is a strategy isn't it?

Denying tower is fine. It's not rewarding as you think, it's just decreasing collateral damage.
Don't think of having lesser towers as an advantage. It doesn't get you to a safer place. It meant that your team's safe place got lesser as the vision and damage that was once there is now gone. The ability to farm further safely from your base is now gone, and is given to the opponent instead. Also the pressure of having less defense will give you less options to push for the enemy's side of the map. Creeps (or minion) gets to advance without help eventually and they can even destroy towers (or your base) when left undefended.
That pressure sure isn't an advantage.

Denying team mate is the same as what I've mentioned above. It's skill, not everyone can do it. Not everyone is keen on what's happening in a 5v5 clash to even notice that someone needs to be denied. Denying a team mate isn't rewarding, it's just making the collateral damage less. The respawn time is the same. Your team mate isn't there to help in pushing or defending.

I also find denying self as annoying.

[🐭Pablo_EsTohka🐭]

I think denying is pretty fun though . Even Valve add the "?" seasonal effect when u deny anything. For me, instead of abusing in-game chat, this is a better way to causing the "mind's game" (make your opponent angry cause he can't farm well or get bounty from kills).

[Wabbajack]

Imagine you are mid techies against mid alchemist who has passive skill that allowes him to get increased gold for last hit let's just say he get 100 gold per creep wave when you are not denying and 50 gold per creep wave when you denying. You cut half of his income on gold and exp which means he has to jungle and you gaind higher chances to siege his tower. It's very important and it need some skill to deny because sometimes an enemies can clear creep wave easily (sf, storm, axe, etc)

Wait untill you learned about camp blocks and pulling enemies creep to your own lane.

[󠀡󠀡Microsoft Outlook]

Complaining about basic stuff
Yet if you dont like it go ahead play LOL
You cannot last/deny creep properly make you furious and stress out?
Grow up and adapt to deny skill
Clearly you are so basic that cannot deny creep .
if you learn how to deny creep maybe you wouldnt be making this thread
^^

[Rushmepls]

I don t get people bragging about denying...First of all this qq deny stuff was brought since the beginning of dota (dota 1) which was the first moba out there.Second it makes the game more challenging,harder the skill cap etc There s also camp stacking,blocking pulling idk about lol or other mobas have it,vut i preffer this to just last hitting enemy creeps.
Taking this in consideration i preffer dota to lol (which is Riot easier copy of dota 1 with animes)
P.s dota was on way before LoL