It's true. The matchmaker does force lose streaks after win streaks.

[Tox]

Having seen it first hand, after getting a 7 or so winstreak the other day and subsequently being forced into a lose streak by being matched against teams pulled together using only highly skilled (relative to bracket) players and getting teammates who, although they aren't all horrible players, did not come together as a solid unit.

The matchmaker is somehow able to discern "these 5 players are strongly capable of team cohesion" versus "these 5 players will not be able to play as a team" and it pulls together these games to force artificial lose streaks.

I don't think this is some conspiracy to keep higher brackets "pure", but moreso a horrendous attempt at making sure streaks are 'tested' against an arbitrary idea that if you are on a streak you must be able to pull it off in a non-cohesive team or you deserve a net loss of the hundreds of mmr you legitimately earned from said streak.

I suspect it's also part of the anti-smurfing measures, which I can't fault the intentions of, but it is demonstrable now in my personal experience that lose streaks are forced after win streaks regardless of any altruistic intentions.

No, for the record, I am not claiming that I am infallible or better than my teammates or even anything spectacular as a player. There's a reason I'm forever herald and not able to climb into guardian; I get that. But to lose hundreds of mmr in a solid streak, when I've done nothing but improve on a handful of heroes and learn their intricacies (save for a couple of deviations to see if changing it up breaks the streak), improved on my warding and responding to other lanes, etc... it's utter crap. I know I'm not entirely at fault for my lose streak and nor are my teammates.

[BossGalaga]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ERROR 37:

I think it's time Valve sits the DOTA dev team on the bench and open source this responsibility. Clearly after 8 years you think you would make progress.

Is Valve forcing you to feed and repeatedly abandon games? Because in recent matches, you have repeatedly abandoned and you have repeatedly been the lowest-performing player on your team with the highest number of deaths. How should Valve fix that? Valve can't force you to play better. At what point do you take responsibility for your own performances? If you believe that Valve is forcing you to lose and rigging matches against you in solo pubs then simply join or create your own party and invite players just like yourself.

[Tox]

Diposting pertama kali oleh BossGalaga:

If Valve is "forcing" you to lose games as you claim, then in those 7 games that you won, according to your "logic" Valve forced those other teams to lose.

Read again, I didn't frame this as some sort of Valve conspiracy; it's a failing in the matchmaker's algorithm likely arising from good intentions if caused by design.
Try reading my other replies, too, and you'll see that I even acknowledge that the algorithm has probably played a part in an artificial win streak too.

Diposting pertama kali oleh BossGalaga:

You claim that winning 7 games and then losing a game is somehow "proof" that Valve is "forcing" you to lose. Do you expect to just never lose a game? And as others have mentioned, if you're being "forced" to lose in solo pubs then just join or create your own party, and then you'll have no one to blame but yourself when you lose.

I know you enjoy putting words in others' mouths whenever they raise this topic of forced lose streaks, but go ahead and reread what I said. I didn't say "losing a game" is "proof that Valve is forcing" me to lose.

I quite enjoy the ribbing you give to others when they say stupid ♥♥♥♥ like that, but don't try the strawman crap with me.
If you bothered to read some of my other replies instead of going with the strawman approach, you'd see I already explicitly said I don't expect to win all the time in a never ending win streak.

[zZzooey.exe]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Toxicity:

Diposting pertama kali oleh zooitje:

1. so who would you blame for losses if you were to always play in coordinated 5 man stack?

2. why do you all think system works only when youre winning, but doesnt work when youre losing? are you not aware that enemy had feeder or noob in their team in one of those 7 games youve won? why didnt you complain then? solely because youre the one that won? thats weird.

3. why is it so hard to understand this isnt a game you can ''complete'' aka youre not meant to climb infinitely? once you reach cap of your skill youll get stuck. fact that that happens proves you the balance of some sort is there. if random noobs could win 100 games and not lose a single one that would be an extremely unbalanced game.

1. A fair loss is a fair loss. Been in plenty of games where it was a nice even tug of war and by our own mistakes we lost as a team. Don't mistake me for someone who thinks themselves infallible, doesn't acknowledge their own part in a loss, etc, just because I've pointed out artificial lose streaks existing.

2. Might wanna read some of my other responses here before shooting off, pal.

3. See #2, jackass.

So do you act like this ingame too? That would explain your bad experience youve had, along with your name. No offense.


1. answer the question properly. who do you blame if youre in a 5 stack? or do you go toxic on your party mates too when you lose? its confusing.
2. just because youve lost doesnt mean game is imbalanced. that kinda makes no sense. you say you dont want to win more just want more balance. in what way? you want pro players on your team and perfect game even if its a loss? not only does that ''perfect loss'' idea make no sense but how can you ever expect that in herald? Even in legend rank people barely know the basics, let alone in herald.
3. Thanks for ad hominem, it was barely answering anything. But allright.

[Tox]

Diposting pertama kali oleh zooitje:

So do you act like this ingame too? That would explain your bad experience youve had, along with your name. No offense.


1. answer the question properly. who do you blame if youre in a 5 stack? or do you go toxic on your party mates too when you lose? its confusing.
2. just because youve lost doesnt mean game is imbalanced. that kinda makes no sense. you say you dont want to win more just want more balance. in what way? you want pro players on your team and perfect game even if its a loss? not only does that ''perfect loss'' idea make no sense but how can you ever expect that in herald? Even in legend rank people barely know the basics, let alone in herald.
3. Thanks for ad hominem, it was barely answering anything. But allright.

Are you trying to be ironic with your opener and closer, where you open with an ad hominem then close by (wrongfully) accusing me of one? But let's go ahead and dispel your little "OMG HIS NAME IS TOXICITY THAT MUST MEAN HE'S TOXIC!!!" implication (edit: seriously, I don't think you realise how much of an unoriginal ♥♥♥♥ you were, to try that old line)... the name has been one I chose some 16 or so years ago, back when "toxic" wasn't remotely used in the context that it is today and it was chosen in reference to a preference for poison-based attacks/spells/damage in games (inc. dota/wc3). MOVING ON!

1. I did. If the game is fair, and a loss is incurred, any "blame" is fairly distributed where appropriate. There have been many examples of these games over the course of my time on DotA Allstars and Dota 2. Do I get snippy from time to time in the midst of a lose streak, absolutely. Do I keep trying my best to win though? Also absolutely. I don't abandon, I don't grief, etc.

2. You seem to be once again misunderstanding or even deliberately misrepresenting what I've said here, so again I'll go ahead and encourage you to reread what's been said.

3. No response warranted here.

[Absche]

Just blame the game for its snowballing character and adapt to it, try to enjoy it, try to exploit it or leave it. It's the same challenge for all of us. You are not special in that kind but maybe different how to cope with it.

[zZzooey.exe]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Toxicity:

Diposting pertama kali oleh zooitje:

So do you act like this ingame too? That would explain your bad experience youve had, along with your name. No offense.


1. answer the question properly. who do you blame if youre in a 5 stack? or do you go toxic on your party mates too when you lose? its confusing.
2. just because youve lost doesnt mean game is imbalanced. that kinda makes no sense. you say you dont want to win more just want more balance. in what way? you want pro players on your team and perfect game even if its a loss? not only does that ''perfect loss'' idea make no sense but how can you ever expect that in herald? Even in legend rank people barely know the basics, let alone in herald.
3. Thanks for ad hominem, it was barely answering anything. But allright.

Are you trying to be ironic with your opener and closer, where you open with an ad hominem then close by (wrongfully) accusing me of one? But let's go ahead and dispel your little "OMG HIS NAME IS TOXICITY THAT MUST MEAN HE'S TOXIC!!!" implication... the name has been one I chose some 16 or so years ago, back when "toxic" wasn't remotely used in the context that it is today and it was chosen in reference to a preference for poison-based attacks/spells/damage in games (inc. dota/wc3). MOVING ON!

1. I did. If the game is fair, and a loss is incurred, any "blame" is fairly distributed where appropriate. There have been many examples of these games over the course of my time on DotA Allstars and Dota 2. Do I get snippy from time to time in the midst of a lose streak, absolutely. Do I keep trying my best to win though? Also absolutely. I don't abandon, I don't grief, etc.

2. You seem to be once again misunderstanding or even deliberately misrepresenting what I've said here, so again I'll go ahead and encourage you to reread what's been said.

3. No response warranted here.

Damn hes in a really fighty mood today.
Nothing ive said is ad hominem, but i think you think if you say insult first it makes you right. But it doesnt.
You seem to agree with my arguments somehow but still acting like we are on opposite sides. I dont think more can be said in that case...

[Urinietszche]

What I noticed is game does mirroring when try to balance the game. For example, when we play party mmr as team of three, we get party of two to make 5 men team. So the game can grab noobs from lower rating and put same noobs on the opposite team and then you play 3 good + 2 noob vs 3 good + 2 noob. To get match where all 10 players will be simillar skill is to meet unicorn in local park. Maybe it is simillar to solo mmr, not a fan of it however, cant confirm

[BossGalaga]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Toxicity:

Diposting pertama kali oleh BossGalaga:

If Valve is "forcing" you to lose games as you claim, then in those 7 games that you won, according to your "logic" Valve forced those other teams to lose.

Read again, I didn't frame this as some sort of Valve conspiracy; it's a failing in the matchmaker's algorithm likely arising from good intentions if caused by design.
Try reading my other replies, too, and you'll see that I even acknowledge that the algorithm has probably played a part in an artificial win streak too.

Diposting pertama kali oleh BossGalaga:

You claim that winning 7 games and then losing a game is somehow "proof" that Valve is "forcing" you to lose. Do you expect to just never lose a game? And as others have mentioned, if you're being "forced" to lose in solo pubs then just join or create your own party, and then you'll have no one to blame but yourself when you lose.

I know you enjoy putting words in others' mouths whenever they raise this topic of forced lose streaks, but go ahead and reread what I said. I didn't say "losing a game" is "proof that Valve is forcing" me to lose.

I quite enjoy the ribbing you give to others when they say stupid ♥♥♥♥ like that, but don't try the strawman crap with me.
If you bothered to read some of my other replies instead of going with the strawman approach, you'd see I already explicitly said I don't expect to win all the time in a never ending win streak.

You didn't say that you're losing games because of "good intentions", you claim that you're losing games because "The matchmaker does FORCE lose streaks after win streaks." You're using the word "FORCE." That implies direct intent. The Dota 2 developers have even come forward and openly stated that the matchmaking does not attempt in any way to break winstreaks, that it simply attempts to match teams with as even a spread of mmr as possible. That's not "FORCING" you to lose games.

Again, if as you claim, the matchmaker is "FORCING" you to lose games, then logically when you win a game, the system must have "FORCED" the other team to lose, so then you don't really deserve those winstreaks in the first place. If you can have a win streak, then why can't you have a losing streak?

And again, if you truly believe that the matchmaker is "FORCING" you to lose games then logically you can simply bypass these terrible teammates by joining or creating your own party and inviting players like yourself.

If you're going to claim that the matchmaker is "FORCING" you to lose then provide actual, legitimate and rational proof. Losing a game or having a losing streak is not "proof." If this system existed as you claim and Valve removed it, you would STILL have both win and loss streaks.

[Tox]

Diposting pertama kali oleh zooitje:

Damn hes in a really fighty mood today.
Nothing ive said is ad hominem, but i think you think if you say insult first it makes you right. But it doesnt.:DaughterConfused:
You seem to agree with my arguments somehow but still acting like we are on opposite sides. I dont think more can be said in that case...

Mate, you were literally the one to say it first there, and you were wrong in doing so and indeed tried to frame my lose streak based on the wrongful association of my alias with the modern contemporary (over-usage) of the word "toxic" as a descriptor of behavior.
Do please keep projecting :)

If you had read what I've said properly we wouldn't be having this pissing contest right now (I would hope not, anyway)

[Big Dog]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Zagryzaec:

So which one are you? The one who will be put into weak team to enforce a forced win or the one wgo will be put into stronger team to enforce a loss?

I am the guy when I searched ranked I expect everyone on my team is playing to win, even if I won 10 games in a row just now, not run down mid feeding min 1 cause they just want 4 more ranked roles games.

[Big Dog]

Diposting pertama kali oleh BossGalaga:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Toxicity:

Read again, I didn't frame this as some sort of Valve conspiracy; it's a failing in the matchmaker's algorithm likely arising from good intentions if caused by design.
Try reading my other replies, too, and you'll see that I even acknowledge that the algorithm has probably played a part in an artificial win streak too.



I know you enjoy putting words in others' mouths whenever they raise this topic of forced lose streaks, but go ahead and reread what I said. I didn't say "losing a game" is "proof that Valve is forcing" me to lose.

I quite enjoy the ribbing you give to others when they say stupid ♥♥♥♥ like that, but don't try the strawman crap with me.
If you bothered to read some of my other replies instead of going with the strawman approach, you'd see I already explicitly said I don't expect to win all the time in a never ending win streak.

You didn't say that you're losing games because of "good intentions", you claim that you're losing games because "The matchmaker does FORCE lose streaks after win streaks." You're using the word "FORCE." That implies direct intent. The Dota 2 developers have even come forward and openly stated that the matchmaking does not attempt in any way to break winstreaks, that it simply attempts to match teams with as even a spread of mmr as possible. That's not "FORCING" you to lose games.

Again, if as you claim, the matchmaker is "FORCING" you to lose games, then logically when you win a game, the system must have "FORCED" the other team to lose, so then you don't really deserve those winstreaks in the first place. If you can have a win streak, then why can't you have a losing streak?

And again, if you truly believe that the matchmaker is "FORCING" you to lose games then logically you can simply bypass these terrible teammates by joining or creating your own party and inviting players like yourself.

If you're going to claim that the matchmaker is "FORCING" you to lose then provide actual, legitimate and rational proof. Losing a game or having a losing streak is not "proof." If this system existed as you claim and Valve removed it, you would STILL have both win and loss streaks.

Yes tell me more how it's not a force lose when you are on a streak then you get 2 games in a row of people trolling / feeding cause they want their 4 more ranked roles games.

[Tox]

Diposting pertama kali oleh BossGalaga:

You didn't say that you're losing games because of "good intentions", you claim that you're losing games because "The matchmaker does FORCE lose streaks after win streaks." You're using the word "FORCE." That implies direct intent. The Dota 2 developers have even come forward and openly stated that the matchmaking does not attempt in any way to break winstreaks, that it simply attempts to match teams with as even a spread of mmr as possible. That's not "FORCING" you to lose games.

Where have they said this. I would be curious to read it in their words regardless of my suspicions. But while you're at it, read again and you'll see that I did in fact attribute it to a potential side effect of anti-smurfing measures (aka: good intentions).

Diposting pertama kali oleh BossGalaga:

Again, if as you claim, the matchmaker is "FORCING" you to lose games, then logically when you win a game, the system must have "FORCED" the other team to lose, so then you don't really deserve those winstreaks in the first place. If you can have a win streak, then why can't you have a losing streak?

Who said anything about them being organically impossible? I've had lose streaks that weren't preceded by notable winstreaks before, that's not being contended at all. Stop strawmaning.

Diposting pertama kali oleh BossGalaga:

And again, if you truly believe that the matchmaker is "FORCING" you to lose games then logically you can simply bypass these terrible teammates by joining or creating your own party and inviting players like yourself.

Yes, yes, everyone's heard that line from you before too. I don't have friends I can 5man with and generally I'm not seeking that kind of experience. I'm content solo queuing or occasionally partnering up with folks i meet along the way; even if that means both artificial and organic win/lose streaks are part of the package.

Diposting pertama kali oleh BossGalaga:

If you're going to claim that the matchmaker is "FORCING" you to lose then provide actual, legitimate and rational proof. Losing a game or having a losing streak is not "proof." If this system existed as you claim and Valve removed it, you would STILL have both win and loss streaks.

Seeing it first hand is enough to hold the suspicion, for me. If I was able to see the algorithm, that would surely prove or disprove the suspicion but that's not something I have nor am demanding access to. Sure, it's not appropriate for me to say "it's true" in the thread title when really it should say something like "I too suspect", so on that part I'll concede.

If it does exist and it were to be removed, I'd venture to say that both win and lose streaks would dramatically decrease, though they would both be possible and it would, theoretically, be far more organic.

[BossGalaga]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Toxicity:

Where have they said this. I would be curious to read it in their words regardless of my suspicions. But while you're at it, read again and you'll see that I did in fact attribute it to a potential side effect of anti-smurfing measures (aka: good intentions).

Notice how you've immediately discounted it? Anyway, just for you, here you go, sources are in the description.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2636192761

Diposting pertama kali oleh Toxicity:

Who said anything about them being organically impossible? I've had lose streaks that weren't preceded by notable winstreaks before, that's not being contended at all. Stop strawmaning.

You're the one claiming that Valve is "FORCING" you to lose games, without providing any evidence so I would direct your insults and "durrr strawmanning" comments back to yourself.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Toxicity:

Diposting pertama kali oleh BossGalaga:

If you're going to claim that the matchmaker is "FORCING" you to lose then provide actual, legitimate and rational proof. Losing a game or having a losing streak is not "proof." If this system existed as you claim and Valve removed it, you would STILL have both win and loss streaks.

Seeing it first hand is enough to hold the suspicion, for me. If I was able to see the algorithm, that would surely prove or disprove the suspicion but that's not something I have nor am demanding access to. Sure, it's not appropriate for me to say "it's true" in the thread title when really it should say something like "I too suspect", so on that part I'll concede.

You keep repeating "strawmanning" like a broken record yet when asked to provide actual legitimate evidence for your claims that Valve is "FORCING" you to lose games, you claim that your experience simply losing games is somehow proof. You say that if you could "see the algorithm" then you could disprove your own theory, so then you're also conceding that you have no actual proof for your claims, and you're basically saying that the onus to provide proof is on the accused, not yourself, who is making these claims and conspiracies.

[Big Dog]

Diposting pertama kali oleh BossGalaga:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Toxicity:

Where have they said this. I would be curious to read it in their words regardless of my suspicions. But while you're at it, read again and you'll see that I did in fact attribute it to a potential side effect of anti-smurfing measures (aka: good intentions).

Notice how you've immediately discounted it? Anyway, just for you, here you go, sources are in the description.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2636192761

Diposting pertama kali oleh Toxicity:

Who said anything about them being organically impossible? I've had lose streaks that weren't preceded by notable winstreaks before, that's not being contended at all. Stop strawmaning.

You're the one claiming that Valve is "FORCING" you to lose games, without providing any evidence so I would direct your insults and "durrr strawmanning" comments back to yourself.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Toxicity:

Seeing it first hand is enough to hold the suspicion, for me. If I was able to see the algorithm, that would surely prove or disprove the suspicion but that's not something I have nor am demanding access to. Sure, it's not appropriate for me to say "it's true" in the thread title when really it should say something like "I too suspect", so on that part I'll concede.

You keep repeating "strawmanning" like a broken record yet when asked to provide actual legitimate evidence for your claims that Valve is "FORCING" you to lose games, you claim that your experience simply losing games is somehow proof. You say that if you could "see the algorithm" then you could disprove your own theory, so then you're also conceding that you have no actual proof for your claims, and you're basically saying that the onus to provide proof is on the accused, not yourself, who is making these claims and conspiracies.

Why would anyone read what a cheater has to say LOL.

[BossGalaga]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Slayer:

Why would anyone read what a cheater has to say LOL.

Let me get this straight, according to you, anyone that doesn't agree with you is a "cheater." Then using your "logic", you not agreeing with me, makes you a cheater, doesn't it?

Feel free to explain exactly how I'm "cheating." My match history is public.