ROLE QUEUE VS CLASSIC = FAIR?

[China悠然]

ROLE QUEUE VS ROLE QUEUE= BETTER
CLASSIC VS CLASSIC= BEST
ROLE QUEUE VS CLASSIC = UNFAIR
LIKE ALL OF THE OTHER SIDE IS CARRY

[RJboxer]

The eagle has landed.
The tall man has a brown hat.
In the woods there is a stream.
The eagle has landed.
I repeat the eagle has landed.

(are we doing ww2 codes for the partisans? cool.)

[China悠然]

ACTING SMART BUT IN YOUR REAL LIFE ALL THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU THINKS UR TRASH

[76561199091735933]

Yes, role system sucks hard vs proper classic picks with equal team skills. Unfair.

[Rabbit 🍌]

Very philosophical. I mean the question is.

[Absche]

To make it clear, who is in disadvantage in classic vs roles match?

[Rabbit 🍌]

Originally posted by Absche:

To make it clear, who is in disadvantage in classic vs roles match?

Classic is at disadvantage in classic vs roles. I think the point is that role queue system actually deters the fairness of mmr differences so some people would rather have it back to classic for all because if you queue classic and end up with 5 carry pickers while the ennemy team is role queue you're in the ♥♥♥♥.

[76561199091735933]

Originally posted by Rabbit Zambonie:

Classic is at disadvantage in classic vs roles. I think the point is that role queue system actually deters the fairness of mmr differences so some people would rather have it back to classic for all because if you queue classic and end up with 5 carry pickers while the ennemy team is role queue you're in the ♥♥♥♥.

Lies. 5 skilled "carry" (exact definition someone?) pickers will blow "meta" or "role" pick from map in no time. Ez t3 at 12 min Ez Ancient at 15 typically. In normal not turbo.

Too bad fake skilled modern players play "roles" or "Dota meta". Noobs will lose with any pick or strategy if outskilled.

[Absche]

Originally posted by abcdef1234:

Originally posted by Rabbit Zambonie:

Classic is at disadvantage in classic vs roles. I think the point is that role queue system actually deters the fairness of mmr differences so some people would rather have it back to classic for all because if you queue classic and end up with 5 carry pickers while the ennemy team is role queue you're in the ♥♥♥♥.

Lies. 5 skilled "carry" (exact definition someone?) pickers will blow "meta" or "role" pick from map in no time. Ez t3 at 12 min Ez Ancient at 15 typically. In normal not turbo.

Too bad fake skilled modern players play "roles" or "Dota meta". Noobs will lose with any pick or strategy if outskilled.

Yes, that was my idea too. A classic team that knows what to do outside the strict role based lineups can take a simple minded ranked role team by surprise. Ranked role players tend to unlearn the basic Dota2 feature of diversity. Of course simple minded teams of either type are lost against a better team.

[Ulthwé]

Originally posted by Absche:

Originally posted by abcdef1234:

Lies. 5 skilled "carry" (exact definition someone?) pickers will blow "meta" or "role" pick from map in no time. Ez t3 at 12 min Ez Ancient at 15 typically. In normal not turbo.

Too bad fake skilled modern players play "roles" or "Dota meta". Noobs will lose with any pick or strategy if outskilled.

Yes, that was my idea too. A classic team that knows what to do outside the strict role based lineups can take a simple minded ranked role team by surprise. Ranked role players tend to unlearn the basic Dota2 feature of diversity. Of course simple minded teams of either type are lost against a better team.

"Good players are better than bad players" or how to try to sound smart.

[Absche]

Originally posted by Ulthwé:

Originally posted by Absche:

Yes, that was my idea too. A classic team that knows what to do outside the strict role based lineups can take a simple minded ranked role team by surprise. Ranked role players tend to unlearn the basic Dota2 feature of diversity. Of course simple minded teams of either type are lost against a better team.

"Good players are better than bad players" or how to try to sound smart.

ok, a bit more structured:

(Low ranked) Ranked role players tend to neglect the factor diversity in the game: limited out of the box thinking. They tend to throw matches that are slightly off the standard and think everything is set if they are within the limits of the standard setup. Every deviation from the fixed lineup is considered as game ruining worth reporting and fightig about

Classic ranked players are more open and convinced that there is a broader range of setups that can work, more resilient to setups out of the limits of 3:2 core to support lineups. They are happy if they can play their favorite role/hero and don't insist on the fixed roles in particular if this may ruin the team spirit. Partly because they remember well how they have beaten the hell out of the enemy with 5 core lineups in the past.

However this cannot compensate larger differences in individual game play or team building skills. E.g. ranked role teams can still negotiate their roles and lineups and overrule the standard setup and classic teams can fight about something and throw early for different reasons.

[Rabbit 🍌]

Originally posted by Absche:

Originally posted by abcdef1234:

Lies. 5 skilled "carry" (exact definition someone?) pickers will blow "meta" or "role" pick from map in no time. Ez t3 at 12 min Ez Ancient at 15 typically. In normal not turbo.

Too bad fake skilled modern players play "roles" or "Dota meta". Noobs will lose with any pick or strategy if outskilled.

Yes, that was my idea too. A classic team that knows what to do outside the strict role based lineups can take a simple minded ranked role team by surprise. Ranked role players tend to unlearn the basic Dota2 feature of diversity. Of course simple minded teams of either type are lost against a better team.

Is it logical to think "so good" classical team will be matched agains't a so "fake skilled modern player" team?

I get what you guys are saying, but we are talking about matchmaking in general and that's not how it works. Back before ranked roles existed how many games were ruined because of 5 carries? I'm pretty sure Valve made the move to create it because of community cries in the first place so I don't think classic make things ultimatly better.

Now I'm pretty sure when OP talks about is it fair he's talking about chances of winning and if one team picks 5 non-meta hero that doesn't counter any of the 5 ennemy meta hero + they pick 5 carry their odds of winning are fairly low given how the game works.

[BossGalaga]

Originally posted by DEAD STARS:

ROLE QUEUE VS ROLE QUEUE= BETTER
CLASSIC VS CLASSIC= BEST
ROLE QUEUE VS CLASSIC = UNFAIR
LIKE ALL OF THE OTHER SIDE IS CARRY

You're complaining that a role queue team can't win against a random team with all carry picks?

[MVP_lCE™]

Originally posted by DEAD STARS:

ROLE QUEUE VS ROLE QUEUE= BETTER
CLASSIC VS CLASSIC= BEST
ROLE QUEUE VS CLASSIC = UNFAIR
LIKE ALL OF THE OTHER SIDE IS CARRY

I can see some people here maybe don't understand what this author was talking about. But what he said here, I can say might be true and has point because I did experienced myself for these two modes that laid under a competitive game playing. What the author was trying to compare is the MMR being obtained through the game playing of role-queue vs classic where if you play role-queue you probably will suffer for lesser players who abusing the roles but a lot of them can be very inexperience where you will be suffering due to their many wrong playing (newbies). Meanwhile, in classic ranked matchmaking you will suffer different experience when you are being too lucky to match with "pro smurfs" or boosters or vice-versa. For those who questioning author about his complaint, I believe many of you never played much in the lower tiers for both types of modes because technically I can categorize both as following for the summary of all to see and clearly see how BROKEN the ranked matchmaking is:

RANKED ROLE-QUEUE MATCHMAKING :

1. A lot of newbies or inexperience players like to join (maybe to feel how is ranking games)
2. Many new players facing others where some probably cause problems in games

RANKED CLASSIC MATCHMAKING :

1. A lot of experienced smurfs or pros (especially boosters) like to join
2. Matching with those as above can be meant a lucky day for you or vice-versa

Conclusion? ROLE-QUEUE had became a place for newbies or inexperience players to have their game playing while CLASSIC had became a place for most smurfs or booster players to have their game playing.

[76561199091735933]

OMG you don't understand what classic mode is about! And all this because of that faulty "(semi)core-(semi)support" ideas! Which all started years ago by some weird players...even if they were "pros".

Im not even talking here about The Only One proper strategy which can give you approx 100% winrate in party. Its based on game mechanics - who knows it ok but who don't try to develop it from game engine studying.

It's just simple thing - with comparative teams skills "meta" setup will be beaten ez just because jungle or poorly farmed "carrys" still beat any "sups". Which in turn don't farm too and have only their weak abilities and 0 armor and HP and DPS.

That basically idiotic sup-core classification is nonsense because most of heroes can be countered as both. Or at least most "carrys" have "support" abilities for free also. But they have DPS too. Classic examples are Silencer and Ench - "sups" or "cores"? They equally destroy you ez all game stages on pos 1-2-4-5 if their team don't suck hard. Same for DK - he can be 1-2-3-4-5 pos. And he will "control" you and hit you hard both from solo lane or jungle.

So ok - 5 "supcarrys" pick will destroy any 3-2 trash pick. Specially if 3 solo 2 jungle.

Smurfs play 1-2 pos only in roles! They won't go classic for fail mid roll.

Answer for OP question is - yes, totally unfair. If you face proper classic party in MM and forced to pick 2 meta "sups" not to get reported you 100% lose it. Any enemy's single AM or PA will just CD farm that "sups". And then come help beat 3 meta "carrys" - one of them is fail 2 pos mage trash and second fail 3 pos meta fake tank with DPS items and blink. No chances. Unfair.

[MVP_lCE™]

Originally posted by abcdef1234:

OMG you don't understand what classic mode is about! And all this because of that faulty "semi)core-(semi)support" ideas! Which all started years ago by some weird players...even if they were "pros".

Im not even talking here about The Only One proper strategy which can give you approx 100% winrate in party. Its based on game mechanics - who knows it ok but who don't try to develop it from game engine studying.

It's just simple thing - with comparative teams skills "meta" setup will be beaten ez just because jungle or poorly farmed "carrys" still beat any "sups". Which in turn don't farm too and have only their weak abilities and 0 armor and HP and DPS.

That basically idiotic sup-core classification is nonsense because most of heroes can be countered as both. Or at least most "carrys" have "support" abilities for free also. But they have DPS too. Classic examples are Silencer and Ench - "sups" or "cores"? They equally destroy you ez all game stages on pos 1-2-4-5 if their team don't suck hard. Same for DK - he can be 1-2-3-4-5 pos. And he will "control" you and hit you hard both from solo lane or jungle.

So ok - 5 "supcarrys" pick will destroy any 3-2 trash pick. Specially if 3 solo 2 jungle.

Don't talk so much. I know and understand what those dumb smurfs & boosters are doing in CLASSIC MODE. Now, got player raising this issue already. I guess, the community must know and understand about it more. I guess, the developer must know more about it also.