Hoodwink is no longer a core, why?

[MsLucy]

As the title says above. I am going to start my argument, and (opinion) by writing about my experience of this hero, and what I learned from it, which made me disagree, and take a break until (or not) fixed. First and not last, hoodwink "fluffy_rat" was exdronary good in early release of the game, unfortiontly I did not play dota 2 between that timeline, but I heard it was OP, anyway as I still on my point, it was well balanced after its next patch. It was the damonater of the lanes, and the nightmare of its enemies hero's specially "space face", his clone, and invoker. Her night vision sharpshooter was one of the ways that it used to scout ms. roshan in her volcano home. We all knew how hoodwink was annoying, and almost went to the same level as techies sort of, depending on the player skill of course. According to my experinse, and skills, I went from 43% to 50,7% win rate and passed almost 10 individual ranks (stars) with it. One time I started to notice players playing it as a support, and it's in game info went from "Ranged escape nuker" to "Ranged support escape nuker". This hero is really not sutable to be a support hero, because if it did not gain gold advantage, and bought carry items. It's just a water crossbow scoshy hero, with very high procent of mana cost. why hoodwink can not be as normal as an agility carry hero? She is the componation of mutiple hero's such as Sniper, Lina, and wind ranger. It should be a carry. after all that's my opinion no more no less. It went really bad after the patches of other hero's for instance bristleback, and his aganim which her ultimate break do not do any deference after that.

[ナルゴ]

Hoodwink is literally the second most picked hero in the current TI, with a 53% winrate.
She's also 51% winrate in high MMR pubs, with a 22% pickrate.

Her gimmick is being an elusive utility hero that casts her spells from out of nowhere. She doesn't need to carry when she fulfills a role like this so well. She's beyond fine and probably needs a nerf.

[MsLucy]

Originally posted by Nargo:

Hoodwink is literally the second most picked hero in the current TI, with a 53% winrate.
She's also 51% winrate in high MMR pubs, with a 22% pickrate.

Her gimmick is being an elusive utility hero that casts her spells from out of nowhere. She doesn't need to carry when she fulfills a role like this so well. She's beyond fine and probably needs a nerf.

Have you red the title, and skipped most of the below. Anyway my argument is not about how many times it is picked, or its win rate. If that did not explain it enough for you. Most of dota 2 heros got 51% and above winrate such as darkseer he is way more winrate than other heros. Pudge way more picked, and banned than hoodwink. I am not Immortal, and never well be. I am talking about how other heros patches affected hoodwink, and why it turned to be more as a support hero other than not to be a normal agility carry, because its look like hoodwink in next patch is going to be turn to bounty hunter as a support agility hero build. As you said earlier high mmr pick it alot, thats true, but are you just talking their point and ignoring the rest of the community opinion just because they are pros. Its like you taking the opinion of 10% of the community and ignoring the rest. As I said pros do not match the skill, and the mind of the rest of the community. Please notice there is other ranks than immortal. These immortal can win a game with a stick and raw boots, why? because they can, or they might got some cheats which is not suprising. I watch as much as I can high rank mmr hoodwink matches, and most of them went to build of support hoodwink why ? because as I said above. Last but not least, it looks like you either got teird of hoodwink, or you lost your last match against it.

[MsLucy]

Originally posted by Nargo:

Hoodwink is literally the second most picked hero in the current TI, with a 53% winrate.
She's also 51% winrate in high MMR pubs, with a 22% pickrate.

Her gimmick is being an elusive utility hero that casts her spells from out of nowhere. She doesn't need to carry when she fulfills a role like this so well. She's beyond fine and probably needs a nerf.

For your second part, every support, and most of tanks are an utility heros such as, wd, shaman, mars, and slardar...etc, but hoodwink is not. It can not solo lane if got double heros in it. It can easly get ganked and die early game. I dont agree that "cast from nowhere" is the right word for it. If you notice when hoodwink cast its acon, and that spell landed on an enemy hero it will expose its pos where ever hoodwink is hidding, even in the trees. Her ulti can be easly dodged unless the caster is skilled. Its shackles can not help much is late game only helpfull in early game or to pick the flee targets. It has the shortest range which make her so expose to being pickedup.

[turdle]

Originally posted by Popeye:

why hoodwink can not be as normal as an agility carry hero? She is the componation of mutiple hero's such as Sniper, Lina, and wind ranger.

You literally pointed it out yourself why
Lina, Sniper and Windrunner are all played more often than not as a utility 4(WR being bit of an exception as she's also versatile enough to be played as a 2 or 3 because of how strong her ultimate can be)
Hoodwink has a nice agi gain but no talents and no spells to amp up his farming speed. He has a 16 agi gain talent which is nice and could be a nice pickup if the other talent wasn't camoflauge. His 1st skill is a 10 second cooldown and its not spammable cause of its significant mana cost, but it is just spammable enough for a pos 4 to farm the deadlane while the cores take the safer farm on the map. His ultimate is strong, but its also a channeled spell which means you'll be playing further back.
The strongest part of hoodwink without a doubt is the stun which instantly makes him a valuable 4
His value as a core, which even before was as a 3 not as a 1 was significantly hindered by reducing the base agility along with the damage acorn shot did and the bounces reduced by 1, whereas his value as a 4 has remained the same or gotten even better because of the bushwhack buffs

TL;DR no farming abilities, skillset of a utility hero

[Ann☆ﾟ.*･｡]

because she dont scale as well as common carries nowadays like medusa tb luna. her atk spd is already awful. she's more suitable as nuker than right clicking.

looking at her talent she seems to have typical carry talent, but mostly only used for acorn shot.

if you want her to become a monster furry even though you cant scale well, you play her as mid/offlane. topson usually plays mid hoodwink, but typically trying to stay away from right click items

[Vinz]

Cause is much better as support and also late game the other carries will be more powerful then her..

[MsLucy]

Originally posted by watermelon cooler:

Originally posted by Popeye:

why hoodwink can not be as normal as an agility carry hero? She is the componation of mutiple hero's such as Sniper, Lina, and wind ranger.

You literally pointed it out yourself why
Lina, Sniper and Windrunner are all played more often than not as a utility 4(WR being bit of an exception as she's also versatile enough to be played as a 2 or 3 because of how strong her ultimate can be)
Hoodwink has a nice agi gain but no talents and no spells to amp up his farming speed. He has a 16 agi gain talent which is nice and could be a nice pickup if the other talent wasn't camoflauge. His 1st skill is a 10 second cooldown and its not spammable cause of its significant mana cost, but it is just spammable enough for a pos 4 to farm the deadlane while the cores take the safer farm on the map. His ultimate is strong, but its also a channeled spell which means you'll be playing further back.
The strongest part of hoodwink without a doubt is the stun which instantly makes him a valuable 4
His value as a core, which even before was as a 3 not as a 1 was significantly hindered by reducing the base agility along with the damage acorn shot did and the bounces reduced by 1, whereas his value as a 4 has remained the same or gotten even better because of the bushwhack buffs

TL;DR no farming abilities, skillset of a utility hero

I can not find a definition of the word "utility hero", but as far as I know from other skilled players, which if you matched it together that the meaning is a hero who gives the other teammates the chance to do the damage, instead of the same hero, and can hold safely, and take care of the lane alone. If you compare the definition to hoodwink it does not match at all.

Proving my point hoodwinks bushwhack duration in the early game is going to be around 1.5/1.8 which is nothing, if you want to include your first spell, and escape plan to clear creeps weaves in your first, and the third spell, so you can rank up fairly with your team, because hoodwinks right click, is so slow, and not great to clear weaves nor to farm.
When I mentioned the combination hero that hoodwinks guessing where the idea came from, it was meant to prove that this hero is better to be the same as its original creation carry. I did not mean that it is going to carry the whole game as a safe liner, but I meant that she is going to play for example mid as hoodwink carry more like windranger with maelstrom...etc items. Playing windranger is pos 2 or 3 is not surprising its items will be the same bla bla bla.


When you said something about hoodwinks camouflage. I found that hoodwink camouflage is more likely better than the 16 agility, it really saved me a lot of time in team fighting. It is a great talent, and I always go for it.

Hoodwink is not a further back hero, for instance not like sniper it got short range spells such as its first, and its second spell If you want to hit accurately, and not to create a "happy little tree" that bounces everywhere, and it does not hit the target. Only her third spell can be played further back, and I don't recommend doing that, because you might miss the shot or get out of ranged while the sharpshooter is charging. There is a lot of tricks when hoodwink pushes infront of the team to scout teleportations in the teir 2 tower, and do not play further away which prove my point.

Hoodwink spells cost a lot of mana you mentioned that, and I totally agree with you to patch that, but playing it as pos 4 "soft sup" is the worst, if it just launched two spells you're totally out of mana. It's truly the most hero that cost its spells mana according to its mana pool. Your first spell well not let the pos 3 farms well, and you will feed the rang creep to the enemy, if you play pos 4, I suggest playing mid which is the best option.

[tom]

the point is that hoodwink doesn't scale well.
he/she/it has 1 skill that deals damage based on attack damage, making it as much of a carry as bounty hunter.
windranger ult gives her max attack speed, maximizing damage output from building only damage.
just picture this: best hoodwink can do against any true carry is a small stun and some damage from the first skill, if said hero isn't dead, then hoodwink will die, because, any carry, has high DPS that don't go on cooldown.

lion is probably a better carry since he can scale both hp and damage idefinitly and can keep the enemy stunned for a lot of time, while aslo being able to build escape items whitouth losing damage items.

[MsLucy]

Originally posted by Ann☆ﾟ.*･｡:

because she dont scale as well as common carries nowadays like medusa tb luna. her atk spd is already awful. she's more suitable as nuker than right clicking.

looking at her talent she seems to have typical carry talent, but mostly only used for acorn shot.

if you want her to become a monster furry even though you cant scale well, you play her as mid/offlane. topson usually plays mid hoodwink, but typically trying to stay away from right click items

I agree with what you had written in the beginning. Hoodwink right click animation or damage is not balanced in a downward way.

Its aconshot damage bounces without mael make it impossible to last hit creeps.
Someone should buff this hoodwink as a midline carry again not to become a support hero, because of its reduction aconshot, and high mana costs spells.
When you look at hoodwink in its after-release patch it was way better than what it became now. Its spells and talents speak for itself that this hero is a carry.

Topson always plays mid even with deferent heros not just hoodwink, and the way he plays is just to create space for the carry, and to take over the bottom jungle most of the time. When he goes for aganim he also go for deadlus as the last item which makes the carry build balanced between magic and first spell physical damage. If you look at his score he truly got 19 - 0 to make that happens, and not from farming.

[MsLucy]

Originally posted by tom:

the point is that hoodwink doesn't scale well.
he/she/it has 1 skill that deals damage based on attack damage, making it as much of a carry as bounty hunter.
windranger ult gives her max attack speed, maximizing damage output from building only damage.
just picture this: best hoodwink can do against any true carry is a small stun and some damage from the first skill, if said hero isn't dead, then hoodwink will die, because, any carry, has high DPS that don't go on cooldown.

lion is probably a better carry since he can scale both hp and damage idefinitly and can keep the enemy stunned for a lot of time, while aslo being able to build escape items whitouth losing damage items.

That's why I'm building this argument to not let hoodwink fall down in the hole and to get its foot back in the game in the upcoming patches. I do not know why players hated hoodwink so much, specially when it first came out a lot of them rejected it, and want it to be banned, it was not the same for dawnbreaker even if both were a new heroes.

I just want to point out bounty hunter is not a carry unless you want it to be a mid-lane to counter the invisible hero in the carry lane. I am just argumenting about hoodwink, not about lion or any other heroes. Hoodwink needs to be buffed it was way better before, but now it is just suffering.

[MsLucy]

Originally posted by Dean Ambrose:

Cause is much better as support and also late game the other carries will be more powerful then her..

How powerful hoodwink will be if it only got its 2.4 stun, only to catch flee low hp enemy, and its ulti break which makes its spells do not do any damage comparing to other supports spells.

[Ann☆ﾟ.*･｡]

haha she also has support talent. i think she's decent enough as core hero, but bit too strong ultimate. should increase its cd, switch sharpshooter speed talent to ult cd reduction. now thats fair.

another factor that makes her good is this patch adds alot of trees everywhere.

[MsLucy]

Originally posted by Ann☆ﾟ.*･｡:

haha she also has support talent. i think she's decent enough as core hero, but bit too strong ultimate. should increase its cd, switch sharpshooter speed talent to ult cd reduction. now thats fair.

another factor that makes her good is this patch adds alot of trees everywhere.

Her 15 level talent is the worst, and there is no point in both choices. What 200 health going to do if it got very low health pool, base armor, and the cooldown reduction if it got low mana pool.
I truly think that this hero is wasting all its gold earning just to sustain its mana suffering instead of building real items as it should be.

Correcting your thoughts her ulti was nerfed, and after they removed its scout night vision, and reduced the damage, I do not think it is powerful anymore it became more like a tickle ulti, than a nuker even its acon damage reduced at the same time.

If they changed her 15 talent to mana regen it will fix half of the problem like windranger or techies talent.

Welp dota 2 map is full of trees no doubt of that.

[Ann☆ﾟ.*･｡]

what more hp can do? simple. you live longer. what should kill you, now no longer does.

she had mana problem is fair enough, just like everyone else. the game never intend you to spam skills freely without restraint. after all, even if you play hoodwink carry, you just gonna end up spamming acorn shot anyways, no difference between support. you want mana you gotta get the items

its like tidehunter who spend majority of time spamming anchor to farm deal damage etc. buying carry item but eventually run out of mana like hoodwink hahahaha

[MsLucy]

Originally posted by Ann☆ﾟ.*･｡:

what more hp can do? simple. you live longer. what should kill you, now no longer does.

she had mana problem is fair enough, just like everyone else. the game never intend you to spam skills freely without restraint. after all, even if you play hoodwink carry, you just gonna end up spamming acorn shot anyways, no difference between support. you want mana you gotta get the items

its like tidehunter who spend majority of time spamming anchor to farm deal damage etc. buying carry item but eventually run out of mana like hoodwink hahahaha

let me break my opinion down in a simple way.

If I assume hoodwink is support inline, and compare it to any similar ability support heroes like witchdoctor, or Lich right? which is the hero between all those is suffering from mana pool as simple as that its hoodwink. In the first patch, they increased hoodwink spells mana cost which was totally reasonable, so it does not spam the spell alot, but in its second patch after-release they took out some of the damage from the first spell "aconshot", and some of the base armor, and the night vision ulti has been removed. That made me wondering what just happened?

If hoodwink spells going to cost more that's fine, but at least let it do some damage in its spells, and not leaving it to melt. Hoodwink does not need more hp same for other agility, just return its base armor, and acon damage as it was with the high mana cost, or the opposite would do the job right.

Tidhunter abilities cost mana that's true, but he got a spell that flash the farm with one hit which mean more gold advantage, and an easy way to buy mana items, and goes after that either damage or tanky. For instance, I saw someplayers go for daedalus or deso after fixing the mana issue with no short on gold why? because he is a flush creep hero. The same thing goes for shadow fiend some players go for deso, satanic, and abyssal blade even if they are totally magical heroes they still do a better job with these items which demonstrate my point.