Rethink the core: Remove armor-gain from agility

[dada]

Edit: changed Title "Rethink the core: Swap armor-gain from agility to evasion" to this

I think in general, there are "two sides of a coin", every upside should come with a downside, and everythink should have a countereffect. Especially in competitve gamedesign.

In the games, everyone should have it's role and place in a teamfight. Modern games often tend to make heavy dmg dealers fast and agile, but less endurable like the tanky guys.
But in dota, it often comes to builds, where the heavy hitters are not only tanky, but pretty much self sustaining in selfhealing /lifestealing. Sure, large part of the game (at this state) is not to let this happen, but still. We might be used to, but it might be not optimal, like it is, and i think some might agree. (If so, do it below pls;) (if not, do it constructivly)
Agility is for a dps role quite important, due its attack speed buff. But those dps become far too tanky, more often than not, due to agilities "armor" gain. I think, back in WC3 days, it was thought as a block /parade "defense", but now we got evasion, so it is quite outdated here. Pretty sure. ;)

So, to not just remove the armor-gain an leave agility just with attack speed gain, i think giving evasion instead of armor might be a more fitting bonus. The evasion is just a substitue replacement, my actual concern is the removal of armor-gain with agility points.

BUT the counter to evasion should not just be buying mkb or mealstrom. But every movement inhibiting ability should reduce the evasion. Like a stun, root and such disables it entirely. Slows to a certain degree and so on. After all, if you can't move or aren't even conscious, should you be able to evade the majority of attacks? Probalby not. Not intuitivly, but also not in terms of proper gamedesign, imo.
Actual armor items would get more useful and actually used

There are more stats and dynamics i would like to see changed, but this seems to me one of he most urgent.

For example, i think a lot of health /dmg-taking ability should come with the downside of a bulkier build, which could have the downside of movability-inhibition. Can have it like 1movement for every 100health or whatever could balance right.

Maybe remove the dmg bonus from main attributes all along, and make them more like modifiers for various stats.

Please discuss constructivly to help with improvements to let dota live a little up to the claimed title

"Modern masterpiece"

, one day.

It's still WC3 mechanics.. Do the change you missed 10 years ago, valve!

[huez]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von dada:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von huez:

I agree on the armor part.
Agility heroes with some good health items can become massive tanks.
Not only they deal way more dps than tank carries they also have often way higher effective health. Thanks to agility to armor system... that is just bit unfair?

Evasion however is pretty horrible idea in every way.

I think best logic with with Agility would be Status resistance.

Ninjas get up faster, dont they? :D Armor usually slows down instead, makes no sense with agility heroes anyways. Only the fact that they can still be heavily damaged by magic at late game if they dont build health. While tanks are weak to normal attacks if they dont build armor.

This balance would be ruined tho. But can be balanced with different armor changes on items.

I can't follow you, why ninjas get up faster. I always think the chunky, beefed up gyus don't mind as much, as slander and agile guys, getting a knockout punch.
So, the evasion is more a natural ninjas defense, or rather the defense of agility, while strengh's (or the tanks) defense is resilience, hence status resistance.
You know the values don't have to be big, just something like ~0.1 evasion per agility.
Also evasion could, and mby should, get further counter, like a cooldown after proc, of mby something around ~0.5 sec. That way you can't evade everything but it is getting harder the more people attack an evasion buffed - again strengthen teamplay need.

But again, i would like to "just" detach the armor from agility points. And thought about an alternative, more suitable bonus for it.

Thing with evasion is that its either extremely annoying until its countered.
Its okay if few heroes have it like right now but having MKB as a must have item every game in dota. Kinda kills build variety even more. Dota build varieties are actually pretty horrible even right now. Usually most heroes have so many core items that there is not much left for fun or ....

okay in short. In every game evasion is either overpowered and extremely annoying mechanic but then it gets nerfed or is nerfed from the beginning. I have never seen well balanced evasion in any PVP game. Okay if it is putton pressed evasion like AM shield.
but passive one is just chaos. Its RNG that decides the win not the players.

I mean its just a bad mechanic to add for every agility hero as natural talent.

Its strange if you dont get what i mean by saying that Status resist is agile.
Since Status resist does not mean that you resist the stunning blow. Like some 150kg fat bastard would resist. You recover faster. You knock down 150kg fat bastard with heavy armor in real life. It will take forever for him to get back up.

U knock ninja off from his feed, he will be back up with jump and a kick in your face.
Agility is all about speed. Recovering from stunning blow and getting back on your feet is speed also.

[~]

This game is a push tower game, which side push fast which side can win! A healing ointment bought with more than 100 gold coins can resist the attack of the defense tower and return blood!