At what bracket people's mentality change?

[Fenrir_El]

I absolutely despise how people in 2k think more about themselves than the success of the team. Supports would rather save themselves, midlaner would just take carry's farm, offlaner tank would just sit back and wait for the safest initiation, instead of what enables his carry. Or when carry goes ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ if you get the kill, instead of them, even though you basically gave him a good lane.

Quite often in matches, where I am the most farmed carry and the strongest hero on the map, my team is just happy to sacrifice me to save themselves. And I hate that, when I play heroes like Tiny, Io, Earth spirit, etc or have force stuff/glimmer, I'd suicide if I could save my carry from dying. So, I am curious, at what mmr people start thinking of the team more than their own hero?

[【Silver】]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9NYDgbKsBE

I've asked a very similar question before. Basically, both from experiencing it myself and from what others warned me before doing so, it doesn't get any better until you build up a group to play with. I mean after all, we have pros still in that mentality.

[D3F4ULT]

in the divine / immortal bracket dude all of them is like a pro even an average player at immortal bracket thinks like a pro and act like a pro

[[SC]KotlOfTheLight]

No bracket, its a personal thing. You could be on either ends of the spectrum and still be humble.

[Fenrir_El]

I doubt I'll ever reach divine/immortal. that sucks.. I really like those rare matches, where players play like a team. Today, I played as TB and I just told them not to dive, just protect me and I also was watching my supports to protect them from rikimaru. It was so nice and the most pleasant win. And supports were making sure I won't die and none of them threatened with reports when we were losing early game and I was running away from everyone and farming.

[Parabellum]

5k Players just presupposing certain skillsets

Thats where the Flame is more constructive

But an average smooth Experience
I dont know about that

The best times I had at 2 to 3 k

[Quantum]

Originally posted by No0ne:

So, I am curious, at what mmr people start thinking of the team more than their own hero?

Never.
Try to find a group of people to queue with.

[Absche]

It‘s more a solo vs full stack teaming thing, and parties in between. Team spirit comes with mutual obligations in a team what a lot of solo players avoid like the plague. Many different attitudes in the game but from solo vs. full stack/party you get a first impression how people‘s attitude is.

[Zagryzaec]

Well, the thing is you can change the way a lot of people play.

Like if you start game with "why you picked this ♥♥♥♥", or "don't stand afk doing nothing" to sup who hold stun to save you and cannot harass because you have nothing to save him, unlike this sup. Or "why you get hooked you ♥♥♥♥♥♥ you give fb with your stupidity"

For example one of last games in the beginning I'm with fura suddenly found out that we play against triple lane with venge and pudge which hooked np. As he was trying to ran away (which is impossible in this situation) pause get due to someone disconnected on other side of map he asked wether I'm going to fight.

And as I replied "bro I'm with you untill the end " as game resumed he immidiately stoped running and along with me and his treants we got enough damage to kill both pudge AND venge, and then scare away carry. And if you think that was the only impact of this phrase and my pretty much suicidal dive in the trees vs kill triple lane, that changed his mindset on the game completely, so he started dive to save other teammates globally. And you know what it lead to? It changed the way they play too. So they started prioritise saving their teammates too. It's like a avalanche that starting with a little pebble completely changed mindset of full team, but it works both ways.

The thing is, how people are going to play DotA in your game is heavily depends on your own way to play. Wether they feel playing in a team, or feel ignored and have to think about their own safety.

[littlewitch]

good

[Fenrir_El]

Originally posted by Zagryzaec:

Well, the thing is you can change the way a lot of people play.

Like if you start game with "why you picked this ♥♥♥♥", or "don't stand afk doing nothing" to sup who hold stun to save you and cannot harass because you have nothing to save him, unlike this sup. Or "why you get hooked you ♥♥♥♥♥♥ you give fb with your stupidity"

For example one of last games in the beginning I'm with fura suddenly found out that we play against triple lane with venge and pudge which hooked np. As he was trying to ran away (which is impossible in this situation) pause get due to someone disconnected on other side of map he asked wether I'm going to fight.

And as I replied "bro I'm with you untill the end " as game resumed he immidiately stoped running and along with me and his treants we got enough damage to kill both pudge AND venge, and then scare away carry. And if you think that was the only impact of this phrase and my pretty much suicidal dive in the trees vs kill triple lane, that changed his mindset on the game completely, so he started dive to save other teammates globally. And you know what it lead to? It changed the way they play too. So they started prioritise saving their teammates too. It's like a avalanche that starting with a little pebble completely changed mindset of full team, but it works both ways.

The thing is, how people are going to play DotA in your game is heavily depends on your own way to play. Wether they feel playing in a team, or feel ignored and have to think about their own safety.

What if my support starts fights away from creeps? fights that doesnt lead to anything? It often happens and quite often, I have to tell "i can't help with anything, man, just play safer, just pull and prevent pulls". I don't wanna sacrifice my farm and the potential win in the match to make people feel better. Every 3-4th game as a carry I am threatened to get reported because I am on the other side of the map clearing waves, taking down towers, instead of fighting. Quite often as position 4 I am also "raged at" for not helping to deal with enemy carry on offlane, whereas I am fighting enemy support and preventing pulls and pulling myself.

Don't get me wrong, when I can, I help. I bodyblock to save support, I use my spells if I can to save it and if my support is fighting hard, but I can't help, I use salve on that support, if thanks to him, I am not getting hit. if I have an overly aggressive ogre with me who's fighting too far away for me to help, but I free farm thanks to that, I just salve that ogre and share my tangos with him. If I know I can get the kill if he has mana, I'd even buy mango and use it on support to go for the kill.

[Fistraiser]

No bracket does that mentality change.
Even pros have this bad mentality in pub ranked.

[Zagryzaec]

if your sup fight away from creeps he is doing it to
1 not aggro the creeps and not breaking equilibrium
2 zone enemy out of range of exp. THats far from creeps

if you are in majority in a lane usually its a good idea to forgo farm for a time and kill/zone solo offlaner, once he is out of lane you will get all the creeps you need

[Fenrir_El]

Originally posted by Zagryzaec:

if your sup fight away from creeps he is doing it to
1 not aggro the creeps and not breaking equilibrium
2 zone enemy out of range of exp. THats far from creeps

if you are in majority in a lane usually its a good idea to forgo farm for a time and kill/zone solo offlaner, once he is out of lane you will get all the creeps you need

yeah, trust me, that's not how it works in 2k. I am aggressive when I can and if I can help, but supports do not consider my carry's abilities. There is no point helping that kind of support who will just get me killed. Also, losing 1-2 waves of creeps just to do what? half kill offlaner who's job is to prevent me from farming? No, if you're my support and you decide to take inconvenient fights that leads to nothing, I am not coming. If there is 1-2 creeps left and I can with that support get enemy offlaners to 20-30% hp and they have no regen, sure, I will help. BUT I am not jumping into fight losing most of my hp, missing entire creep wave only to use a salve and watch enemy team use a salve too.
I don't think I've ever met a support in 2k who'd consider those things: 1) how much creeps I will miss? 2) is it in range of gaining exp, at least? 3) do the enemy have regen? 4) how much mana/hp it will cost to fight them? etc

[Absche]

Originally posted by No0ne:

Originally posted by Zagryzaec:

if your sup fight away from creeps he is doing it to
1 not aggro the creeps and not breaking equilibrium
2 zone enemy out of range of exp. THats far from creeps

if you are in majority in a lane usually its a good idea to forgo farm for a time and kill/zone solo offlaner, once he is out of lane you will get all the creeps you need

yeah, trust me, that's not how it works in 2k. I am aggressive when I can and if I can help, but supports do not consider my carry's abilities. There is no point helping that kind of support who will just get me killed. Also, losing 1-2 waves of creeps just to do what? half kill offlaner who's job is to prevent me from farming? No, if you're my support and you decide to take inconvenient fights that leads to nothing, I am not coming. If there is 1-2 creeps left and I can with that support get enemy offlaners to 20-30% hp and they have no regen, sure, I will help. BUT I am not jumping into fight losing most of my hp, missing entire creep wave only to use a salve and watch enemy team use a salve too.
I don't think I've ever met a support in 2k who'd consider those things: 1) how much creeps I will miss? 2) is it in range of gaining exp, at least? 3) do the enemy have regen? 4) how much mana/hp it will cost to fight them? etc

I know supports who were taught by their higher ranked carries how to lane properly with them. Just short calls in game and a few sentences in the post-game chat. And then another game to prove what you have learned.

[Zagryzaec]

The thing you miss is that if offlaner is solo, then you either kill him early, like level 1-2 and make him walk to lane with cd tp, or he will get unkillable, and start destroying both you and your supports, taking away not pair of waves but all the creeps and sending you to farm jungle.

It's not about how much gold and exp you get early. It's how much exp and gold you get RELATIVELY to enemy and how much gold and exp you and your enemy need.

The laning is won by forcing two vs one trade situation whenever possible. Once offlaner gets his third level even two of you may do nothing to deter his progress, and at least sup will be have to leave lane. Will you be able fight opponent two level higher and created to fight early without lots of items alone?