Remove/Balance Neutral Items

[Pizzashot]

Neutral items in this game is very random and sometimes one team get godlike items when the other team get nothing decent for endgame. I just had a very frustrating game where I as a carry did not get anything that a carry could wish for, meanwhile the enemy team got a lot of really good carry items. We did the best we could but the enemy had stupid good items neutral items that gave them a huge advantage against us..

What is this? https://ibb.co/NY5zNKs

The enemy had: Grove Bow, Enchanted Quiver, Paladin Sword, Ninja Gear, Spell Prism, Havoc Hammer and more items that is alright to use.

We had: Mana regen items, Craggy Coat and Magic Lamp...

It is super unfair that the items are not the same or close to the same for both teams. I as a carry had NOTHING to choose from that could compare to what the other team had. I would have loved to have Grove Bow, Enchanted Quiver, Paladin Sword or Ninja Gear..

We have 2 items less in Tier 4 but we would probably have gotten Timeless Relic and Witless Shako or Prince's knife, just to not give the carries something to play with. The game would never have gotten to 60+ minutes because we had nothing to play with.

[Ulthwé]

"Natural items" ah ah ah

[Pizzashot]

Yes, ha ha I wrote Natural ^^

[【Silver】]

Honsetly, they've gotten a lot better at balancing the neutral items, but a handful of them are still ridiculously strong. More so for synergetic heroes, particularly the active skill ones. Net is insanely good, more so on heroes with natural self dispels or spell immunity. Item's like Prince's Knife and Mana Breaker, basically any item with any kind of additional disable to them are overbearing even without synergy. These can cause huge spikes in games if the right hero gets the right item, like a Slark, Niax, Legion or Sky getting an early net or something.

The Dev team needs to look at those items that are causing huge spikes and make changes to them to lessen that issue. Take away Mana Breaker's bonus atack speed and magic bonus damage, Net's not active bonuses, reduce Prince's Hex duration, et cetera. They're not anywhere as bad as before, but there's still a handful causing huge unnatural imbalances in matches.

[huez]

Dude what. U had MIND BREAKER! Lamp is also very strong.

You did not even farm all the tier 4 items and you compare theirs to yours.

YOU DID NOT CONSUME Jelly?!?!

I mean u both had decent items only difference is that they had 2 more tier 4 items.

Pudge not using craggy coat vs SF and unused mindbreaker says alot about your team tho.

[huez]

I quess u played weaver... Both items mind breaker and lamp are really good on you.

Look at their heroes. Invoker, lina, wk, ogre.
They all stun and/or place strong debuffs while dealing massive magic damage to your very low health carry that is very sensible for disables.


You had really friggin good neutrals and AA could just build vlads for lifesteal.

But it looks like they just won due more disables.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Originally posted by Keyser Söze:

Dude what. U had MIND BREAKER! Lamp is also very strong.

You did not even farm all the tier 4 items and you compare theirs to yours.

YOU DID NOT CONSUME Jelly?!?!

I mean u both had decent items only difference is that they had 2 more tier 4 items.

Pudge not using craggy coat vs SF and unused mindbreaker says alot about your team tho.

I can tell just from the neutral item uses (the lack of Jelly use, and one hero on Dire not even HAVING an item, being the most egregious) that this is sub-Crusader.

Then again, even at my current rank (mid-Legend), I still regularly see people either not using a neutral item at all, or using a blatantly-suboptimal one (I've had a LC flatly refuse to give me a Keen Optic when I'm playing Bane). Most likely, this stems from the fact that, because neutral items DO drop randomly, you can't just blindly follow a build. You have to actually think about how different items interact with your hero and whether a teammate could use it better.

[huez]

Originally posted by Yoshino Himekawa:

Originally posted by Keyser Söze:

Dude what. U had MIND BREAKER! Lamp is also very strong.

You did not even farm all the tier 4 items and you compare theirs to yours.

YOU DID NOT CONSUME Jelly?!?!

I mean u both had decent items only difference is that they had 2 more tier 4 items.

Pudge not using craggy coat vs SF and unused mindbreaker says alot about your team tho.

I can tell just from the neutral item uses (the lack of Jelly use, and one hero on Dire not even HAVING an item, being the most egregious) that this is sub-Crusader.

Then again, even at my current rank (mid-Legend), I still regularly see people either not using a neutral item at all, or using a blatantly-suboptimal one (I've had a LC flatly refuse to give me a Keen Optic when I'm playing Bane). Most likely, this stems from the fact that, because neutral items DO drop randomly, you can't just blindly follow a build. You have to actually think about how different items interact with your hero and whether a teammate could use it better.

It looks like invoker was changing his item: courier. :D if u meant him.

Anyways its just strange to see a outrage about neutral items when he had nearly perfect items vs those mad casters but their use of items and draft itself seems much weaker.

And i think i have been such LC too once. :D
You can duel from further away and manaregen is godly too at early game but i personally handed optic to support when i was ready :D

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Originally posted by Keyser Söze:

Originally posted by Yoshino Himekawa:

I can tell just from the neutral item uses (the lack of Jelly use, and one hero on Dire not even HAVING an item, being the most egregious) that this is sub-Crusader.

Then again, even at my current rank (mid-Legend), I still regularly see people either not using a neutral item at all, or using a blatantly-suboptimal one (I've had a LC flatly refuse to give me a Keen Optic when I'm playing Bane). Most likely, this stems from the fact that, because neutral items DO drop randomly, you can't just blindly follow a build. You have to actually think about how different items interact with your hero and whether a teammate could use it better.

It looks like invoker was changing his item: courier. :D if u meant him.

Anyways its just strange to see a outrage about neutral items when he had nearly perfect items vs those mad casters but their use of items and draft itself seems much weaker.

And i think i have been such LC too once. :D
You can duel from further away and manaregen is godly too at early game but i personally handed optic to support when i was ready :D

If you count the Dire hero icons, there are only 4 (Weaver, Mirana, AA, and Pudge).

Point is, it's not really reasonable to claim 'da enemy one cuas betta items JAJAJA', when Dire isn't even making good use of the items they DO have.

[huez]

Originally posted by Yoshino Himekawa:

Originally posted by Keyser Söze:

It looks like invoker was changing his item: courier. :D if u meant him.

Anyways its just strange to see a outrage about neutral items when he had nearly perfect items vs those mad casters but their use of items and draft itself seems much weaker.

And i think i have been such LC too once. :D
You can duel from further away and manaregen is godly too at early game but i personally handed optic to support when i was ready :D

If you count the Dire hero icons, there are only 4 (Weaver, Mirana, AA, and Pudge).

Point is, it's not really reasonable to claim 'da enemy one cuas betta items JAJAJA', when Dire isn't even making good use of the items they DO have.

Haha, yes. I counted weaver 2 times

[Absche]

Neutral items are a team challenge like the Runes and Roshan. The captain should have an eye on the timer and call when to get to jungle for the new tier items. Yes, teams who neglect farming neutral items can be in disadvantage.

[majzerofive]

So, your enemy's pick:
SF, Lina, WK, Ogre, invoker. 5 lina, ogre 4, invoker 3, SF 2, WK 1 role.
Your team's:
Pudge, AA, Weaver, Mirana and some genius that plays without neutral item. AA 5, pudge 4, mirana 3, unknown 2, weaver 1.

And you blame items for not being fair to you? You frikkin kidding me? Enemy has way better pick that you do.
Both teams have dropped two identical rings, you even got close to imbalanced item in previous patches - vambrace. Which is still very good for any hero since it gives % based on a picked stat + free stats. But your AA is playing with it instead of weaver. ?!??!?!?!?!?!
!?!?!?!?!?
!?!?!?!?
!?!?!?!?!??!
WHY??!??!?!?!
Picking 30dmg over free agility, AS etc or at least aquila which is even better because of mana regen! And he wants to swap it with flicker... Freaking genius, alright. Mirana takes the item which is supposed to be in pudge's inv. Instead you see that circus. And you dare to blame items, which is just lol. htf items are to blame when you have no idea how to use them and what is best?
Enemies:
1) Ogre knows that any % magical bonus damage is good, so he takes bow to decrease magic resist
2) WK knows that he should tank
3) invoker knows that he needs mobility - flicker.
4) sf is obv magic SF, so he takes the hammer (although still bad decision, you have ninja gear there, magical quiver, aquila even). Sf is a bot, although I have no idea about the situation in the game, he may have needed it.
5) Lina takes... I don't remember the name, great item for lina, although i'd swap with ogre. Still good enough.

Allies:
1) pudge - first tier item. When you have armor, apple, no one even used HONEY. JESUS CHREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEST.
2) AA - vambrace. Again, not a bad decision if you have braindead cores as weaver, mirana and the last one. They should've taken the vambrace and AA would've taken either ring or the apple to be more tankier.
3) Weaver, +30dmg usable heal, which is one of the most useless items you should get as weaver. Going to swap it with flicker, which is THE most useless item as weaver, unless your enemy has silence and you have no intellect to get a bkb or manta or linqen...
4) Mirana resist? Really? The hero is about hitting an enemy with an arrow and kill your prey before he would get a chance to kill you. Mindbreaker, apple, AGAIN AQUILA. Player ignores better items.
5) 5 plays without an item, lol, okay.

You really blame items for your team and possibly you being incompetent at playing dota 2?

[Pizzashot]

People that say mana regen neutral items is really good for Weaver in mid game should learn that Weaver do not need that much mana to begin with, and his build take care of the little mana he needs. We did not use mana regen items because ''guess what'' WE DID NOT NEED THEM. Somebody should have used the second jelly yes but that would not have changed the game.

I blame the items because they are randomly generated and some builds go better with some neutral items. I would much rather have had paladin sword with damage and 17% lifesteal or Quiver to quickly nuke down a support than an Aquila ring with a tiny stats or a 20 sec cooldown 1.5 sec silence or whatever. Our team had nothing sexy to choose from, but then comes all fanboys protecting items with 9-10 agility like it is the best ♥♥♥♥ in the game.

This is not about who won or lost the game, it is a about that items that one team get might be far superior. Their Shadowfiend had Paladin Sword and he was farmed, how exactly are you supposed to beat him with 9.10 agility and mana regen? To heal from swift attacks with a Paladin Sword would have been way way better. Shadowfiend hits like a truck if you did not know that already, and then he got a free 17% ll item. Not a single neutral item would have helped me against Shadow Fiend, but he had free lifeleech which helped him against me A LOT.

[majzerofive]

Originally posted by pizza!shot:

People that say mana regen neutral items is really good for Weaver in mid game should learn that Weaver do not need that much mana to begin with. We did not use mana regen items because ''guess what'' WE DID NOT NEED THEM. Somebody should have used the second jelly yes but that would not have changed the game.

I blame the items because they are randomly generated and some builds go better with some neutral items. I would much rather have had paladin sword with damage and 17% lifesteal or Quiver to quickly nuke down a support than aquila ring with a tiny stats or a 20 sec cooldown 1.5 sec silence or whatever. Our team had nothing sexy to choose from, but then comes all fanboys protecting items with 9-10 agility like it is the best ♥♥♥♥ in the game.

I don't care that the enemy team might have had a better team, Items should be the same for both teams. It does not matter how the ♥♥♥♥ we played, one team might get items that are super good for them and the other team might get mediocre items that do not help.

I played weaver a lot, more than 400 games. And he needs A LOT of mana unless has 30 level or 6 well-balanced slots. In some games I was even getting kaya to reduce the amount of mana leaking out of my bug. You obviously have no idea how to play weaver. OR in last two-three recent patches devs reduced required mana for each ability. If you didn't need mana as weaver and you were doing alright, you weren't playing carry weaver. Instead it was some 4-5 role weaver that WALKS around the map and uses his 1 and ulti only, with aghs to save the cores. That is the only weaver that doesn't need mana throughout his games. And even that weaver wouldn't have enough at the start of the game until first 1-3 items.
Your game would've been changed if you used your chars appropriately. That is exactly my point which you ignored or haven't got the time to even read it. Neither is good for you.
Your team had PLENTY to choose, but, again, you ignored pretty much every good item. Instead you blame the neutral items, which do not change the result of the game in most cases. Unless it is mindbreaker versus storm spirit. Many items are great if you KNOW. HOW. TO. USE. THEM. You don't. You may not believe me, although that wouldn't change the fact. Instead of trying to prove everyone wrong, try to frikking listen to a bunch of people telling you that you are wrong. Blaming neutral items because they are random is equal to blaming random players for being bad. If you do first, please do second. Blame ranked for matching you versus better players and it is inequality, blame your teammates for being worser than your opponent. Would that help you win? nah, never. Although you will feel better, as you do now trying to prove everyone that you're good.

upd: unsubbed, your question answered. you choose to ignore it, it is your problem.

[Pizzashot]

No, Weaver does not need neutral mana items at 20-30+ min. You have more than enough mana to spam everything later on if you go for Linken. You clearly played Weaver wrong if you needed neutral items to sustain your mana. I Swarm and Shukuchi everywhere when I play Weaver, why can I do it when you could not in your 400 games?

That you even talk about getting Kaya on Weaver proves that you don't understand the hero.

You said something stupid in your previous post and now you try to defend it with a 2050 gold Kaya, which is a waste of 2050g. A Void stone for 825 is all you need if you badly need mana regen ''sometimes you don't'', it is not enough for late game but it will be when upgraded to Linken.

Please do not try to lecture somebody on a hero that you have 0 knowledge about. Weaver did fine even before they introduced neutral items. I played at launch and I came back some week ago and Weaver is pretty much the same as is most other heroes, with a little balancing and a few changes.

And of course you unsubbed, it is scary to argue with somebody that can actually argue for his cause and understand the character that you do not understand.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Originally posted by pizza!shot:

No, Weaver don't need neutral mana items at 20-30+ min. You have more than enough mana to spam everything later on if you go for Linken. You clearly played Weaver wrong if you needed neutral items to sustain your mana. I Swarm and Shukuchi everywhere when I play Weaver, why can I do it when you could not in your 400 games?

That you even talk about getting Kaya on Weaver proves that you don't understand the hero.

You said something stupid in your previous post and now you try to defend it with a 2050 gold Kaya, which is a waste of 2050g. A Void stone for 825 is all you need if you badly need mana regen ''sometimes you don't'', it is not enough for late game but it will be when it is upgraded to Linken.

I do not care about that we lost the game, I find it stupid that both teams get different neutral items. Stop talking about how my teams setup looked and instead defend why neutral items should be different between teams.

Well, if both teams got identical neutral items, that would be biased towards whichever team can use those neutral items better. Say a Paladin Sword drops for both teams, and one team has a Monkey King (Jingu Mastery) and the other team has a Specter. Paladin amps existing Lifesteal/Regen, the raw LS is NOT the purpose of the item, therefore it's WAY better for MK. Or how about Illusionist's Cape? If one team has an image hero like PL or CK, and the other team doesn't have any basestats/image heroes, the first team is favored.

TLDR: Giving both teams the same neutral items wouldn't make them 'balanced', because different heroes use neutral items better or worse.