How I believe to remove the RNG in jungle items

[paper]

Hi everyone I am writing this to hopefully spark a possotive change to the RNG that has come with 7.23 and from reading around here and Reddit it sounds as if most in the community are not happy about this. So let's get to what I think should change.

1. We do not need these jungle items to drop from
jungle creeps instead we can have a separate
currency aquired from killing jungle creeps
2. I believe we could change the Outposts to an "Outpost Shop"(let's call it) where you can spend sed
currency on jungle items
3. Change the the time requirement guidelines for
unlocking higher tiers of jungle item. I propose make
a timer for how long you have one or both Outposts
under your team's control and have that apply to the
time requirements for unlocking tiers of jungle items
4. Seeing that we have the Outpost Shop we should
move them a little closer to the center of the map and
remove the ability to To to it as well.
5. Remove the xp bonus you get from the Outpost
Shop and maybe have it give you a jungle currency
bonus instead
6. Lower the vision granted from the Outpost Shop
7. Increase the time it takes to take control over the
Outpost Shop

I know that these would be radical changes to an already radical update but I believe these changes give a much require skill element to squiring jungle items and encourage a more aggressive and tactical play for the new jungle changes.

I hope that you can understand what I'm trying to outline here and would love to here any feedback (as long as it's not flaming) about me ideas, and encourage all who read to add any thoughts of your own. I'm sure you all value this game as much as I do and want to see possotive change implemented in Dota 2

[mimizukari]

No. The RNG is a core part of the experience.

Over the years they tried to remove all the RNG and turn everything to Pseudo RNG (and these drops are also Pseudo RNG sadly), we need some REAL rng elements to the game again! Well now that you can only get 3 it's pretty real RNG and we need more RNG.

[Deepbluediver]

If you can buy whatever items you want it removes any incentive the jungler has to pass the item off to someone else who can use it better, which is the main benefit of this mechanic IMO.

[Harmonica]

The part of the community that is perfectly happy with it isn't moaning on reddit. These games have been some of the most fun recently.

For your suggestion, just abstracting the items into some currency is not much different from normal jungling and buying items with that jungle gold. The whole point is to make people adapt to the three items they get in each tier, that slightly change the game each match.

[mimizukari]

Originally posted by Harmonica:

The part of the community that is perfectly happy with it isn't moaning on reddit. These games have been some of the most fun recently.

people still use reddit? I used to moderate a 1 million sub subreddit, but reddit is just so clunky that you need so many browser extensions to make it worth using, i ended up just dropping it.

[SmPLy Doraleous]

I like your idea Paper. An even better idea though would to just throw the jungle items into the normal shop and pretend that the Outlanders update never happened. Is it just me, or does it seem ever since the Outlanders update, everyone on your team is constantly killing jungle creeps just praying for the small chance of getting a really cool item...and then going back into the jungle for the same reason....and then meanwhile in a parallel universe...Lycan is pushing bot lane clear to a tier 3 destroying all of your racks? A huge drop in dota players....ever since this garbage update....hmmmm coincidence?...Even I have a hard time clicking that play button for Dota 2 now.

[Grimmz]

how about this?

give the tier unlocks to the losing team? say you lose your first towers you get tier 2 unlocked.
more towers down more tiers. and finally after your rax have been breached you get your final tier unlocked.

so basically when the enemy team controls the entire map and is ready to fountain farm your team, you get all the tiers unlocked(remove the time unlocks) so you still get a chance to fight back.

so if your team had all the towers still standing you wouldn't get any tiers unlocked. they would only be in the favor of the losing side.

[mZ]

Originally posted by Grimmz:

how about this?

give the tier unlocks to the losing team? say you lose your first towers you get tier 2 unlocked.
more towers down more tiers. and finally after your rax have been breached you get your final tier unlocked.

so basically when the enemy team controls the entire map and is ready to fountain farm your team, you get all the tiers unlocked(remove the time unlocks) so you still get a chance to fight back.

so if your team had all the towers still standing you wouldn't get any tiers unlocked. they would only be in the favor of the losing side.

This is a solid idea, but it lacks fairness.

If said "winning" team is currently dominating lanes and towers, then the "losing" team can get a very big advantage here where they can completely stomp the other team with item advantage.
In other words, this can be abused where losing team intentionally losing their towers to farm up high tier items, considering that junglers gets the most out of this.

[Grimmz]

Originally posted by huh:

Originally posted by Grimmz:

how about this?

give the tier unlocks to the losing team? say you lose your first towers you get tier 2 unlocked.
more towers down more tiers. and finally after your rax have been breached you get your final tier unlocked.

so basically when the enemy team controls the entire map and is ready to fountain farm your team, you get all the tiers unlocked(remove the time unlocks) so you still get a chance to fight back.

so if your team had all the towers still standing you wouldn't get any tiers unlocked. they would only be in the favor of the losing side.

This is a solid idea, but it lacks fairness.

If said "winning" team is currently dominating lanes and towers, then the "losing" team can get a very big advantage here where they can completely stomp the other team with item advantage.
In other words, this can be abused where losing team intentionally losing their towers to farm up high tier items, considering that junglers gets the most out of this.

of course there could be some fine tuning in this.

for example limiting the tier items 1 per player or something. or having 1 player equipping them all, making 1 carry in your team the force to be reckoned with. the idea is just to make the power be balanced evenly throughout the entire match so neither of the teams would be having like super stomping capabilities, left over would just be skill and strategy how to use that power. not be like 'now you have this and that item that will give you the win no matter what the enemy does'

[【Silver】]

Honestly, the way things are right now aren't as bad as it started out, but they still need to fine tune the excessive impacts some of the items have and at their time of availability to even drop.
The biggest issue with them is how imbalanced they can throw a match in an instance if the right hero gets the right items, and some heroes are capable of jungling very strongly early, giving them a huge advantage.
Outposts on the other hand are interesting but also have their few quirks that still need adjustments. I think giving shorter initial teleport time to them would help a lot, shorten the true sight/overall range just a little to not show the lane path they're in, and have capturing stop from hero damage instead of requiring a stun or something, or at least extend to roots and snares interrupting it. Maybe take away the exp bonus they give for slight gold gain instead?
They should be better by the time majors roll around hopefully.

[Yurii]

i don't get why ppl don't enjoy sharing items in teamplay game? are you all russians or what?
it' super fun to pick something random and decide who needs it the most, check inventories of teammates and so on. instead of just stupidly "hold the fkn line"..

[【Silver】]

Originally posted by Yurii:

i don't get why ppl don't enjoy sharing items in teamplay game? are you all russians or what?
it' super fun to pick something random and decide who needs it the most, check inventories of teammates and so on. instead of just stupidly "hold the fkn line"..

I don't think anyone is against the item sharing aspect.
Heck, some items could be shared with their effects still active back when the game wasn't filled with an entitled playerbase. Lane mate low on hp? Let them borrow your Ring of health or regen for a little bit. The ability to share the jungle items with teammates is the best part of the update, the problem is simply that some items are too strong in general or if obtain very early, and the means to acquire them are very problematic and too RNG heavy for a healthy competitive setting. Most genuine players just want things to be more healthy for competitive play, because right now it kind of really isn't.

If anything, maybe just have jungle items drop based on a specific jungle creep quota over the entirety of the map. For example, first x jungle creeps killed, the xth one will drop one of the first tier's random x amount of items. You will have practically no real way of knowing how many jungle creeps both teams are killing unless you have full map control which is very rare, especially in higher skill games. This would also give more incentive to stack jungle creeps to better odds at getting one of those jungle items, and also puts something of a time frame where you can't get too many of these essentially 'free' items too quickly of each other while also still having a good sense of RNG to it's aspect.

[Yurii]

e-em.. cannot agree with you. each team HAS the ability to get free items, and their amount is equal - i guess it's 3 items per tier.
at 10th minute items from 5th minute is almost always obsolete unless you are losing. but even with such OP item like shovel if teammate doesn't use it.. you know, it's useless.
about RNG - whole game is RNG, as many players stated in other threads - basher, crits, low ground miss etc.. only those RNGs are not as fun as neutral items and outposts with adds TF2-like routes.

and last point, i remember we had 70+ minute game with latest items available to each team..
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/784123231902093630/4087CF960A70EF50BBC94792408727C4BF7DD672/
all of items till tier 5 went obsolete.

p.s.
I imagine new tournament where commentator screams that one of teams gets shovel.. isn't it fun? haha

p.p.s.
about drop rate - it's hardcoded and is equal to 5 or 2.5%.. I don't quite sure. But its RNG, in some games you can get all 3 items from 2 camps almost instantly

[【Silver】]

You can get all 3 from a single camp. Right now, the level RNG is not healthy for the game competitively. Casually, sure, maybe it's more enjoyable? But even Dota 2's playerbase seems to understand that suddenly losing at the luck of a draw is not fun. There are answers to most all of Dota's RNG based mechanics. Not to the neutral items though currently, at that's the heart of the problem. Some of these items are just not balanced enough yet, and I'm hoping that that changes in time before majors.

[Ulthwé]

Originally posted by 【Silver】:

You can get all 3 from a single camp. Right now, the level RNG is not healthy for the game competitively. Casually, sure, maybe it's more enjoyable? But even Dota 2's playerbase seems to understand that suddenly losing at the luck of a draw is not fun. There are answers to most all of Dota's RNG based mechanics. Not to the neutral items though currently, at that's the heart of the problem. Some of these items are just not balanced enough yet, and I'm hoping that that changes in time before majors.

They retrieved elixir, helm of the undying and maybe others I forgot, they still need to adjust because yeah maybe some of them are strong, but hey, if you lose because enemy got one item you don't have, you are really bad... Or is it only an excuse?

[【Silver】]

Originally posted by Miaou:

Originally posted by 【Silver】:

You can get all 3 from a single camp. Right now, the level RNG is not healthy for the game competitively. Casually, sure, maybe it's more enjoyable? But even Dota 2's playerbase seems to understand that suddenly losing at the luck of a draw is not fun. There are answers to most all of Dota's RNG based mechanics. Not to the neutral items though currently, at that's the heart of the problem. Some of these items are just not balanced enough yet, and I'm hoping that that changes in time before majors.

They retrieved elixir, helm of the undying and maybe others I forgot, they still need to adjust because yeah maybe some of them are strong, but hey, if you lose because enemy got one item you don't have, you are really bad... Or is it only an excuse?

Is this a serious question or? lol
Your own post is a little contradicting there, because yes, some of the items have too strong of an impact and can horribly disbalance a match. This is why they removed those items. Are you saying people are bad for losing at a disadvantage purely on RNG with little to no answer for?
you can equate items capabilities to value and worth. I would look into the value range of each neutral item and consider how much an impact that amount of 'worth or value' can have in a match, especially at the time frame they can be obtained. Competition should be more of a matter of skill after all, not more so a matter of chance.