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Fenrir_El Apr 25, 2019 @ 7:54pm
Advice for mid lane player
I played as invoker against monkey king. Killed him once, he didnt kill me at all. I got good farm and some denies and making mk choose between getting hit to half hp and then die to 3 spell combo, while he tries to last hit, or run back and wait for heal. However, every time he dissappears, I think he's going for rune, as usually, but he ends up on another lane killing someone. As soon as I see that, I push the tower, but I can't push hard, cause mk tps back quickly. As a result, I can't rotate, unless someone is really diving under our tower, because most of the time at my low mmr, my teammates will wait for me to do all the job, then get kill-steal, while I ended up tanking 1-2 players, losing time, mana, experience and gold from creeps.

Given my offlane was stupid sniper+morphling and safelane ck+skywrath, who didnt ward themselves at all. Was there anything I could've done to carry the game? To have good farm, stop mk from pushing my tower and helping other lanes? After dying to me once, mk became very cautious and it was hard to kill him. Because of lack of vision on runes or jungle, I couldnt see if he's ganking or going for runes (unless top rune, cause I always ward myself). When I try to tp to the lane to help my ganked teammates, they die too fast.
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Originally posted by Zagryzaec:
Originally posted by Fenris_M:

Dude, what he said is basics and he's explaining it it to me, cause he thinks I am a total idiot or something. And where I'd love to hear from him more, he just writes something in a sense of "if you can't do this, you just ♥♥♥♥, so play support".
Ok. There is certain misunderstanding I see.
Support is the hardest role in DotA. Not most important, as there is NO most important role in a TEAM, but one of the most defining.

It also most macro orientied role, which allows to learn those principles better without distracting on mechanical skills like last hits. Supports are the ones who must carry the game from the very beginning to the very end. Who shouldn't waste their time to farm. The ones who must IMPACT the game without resources from the very beggining. It is not role for ♥♥♥♥. It is role to make best. After you master support these skills will serve as a strong basis for any other role. That's why it's better to start game as one.

You know why people often picks some stupid heroes like lion, rubic or jakiro mid? Because role of mider is basically well farmed support. The main difference is ability to strongly realise gold and exp, that he will get from the beginning, and after joining the game (about 6-13 min), and dominating his lower level opponents without dieing. His role is not to farm. That is the role of carry. His role is fast dominate midgame-lategame with early advantage.

Therefore winning mid lane is NOT his goal in the game. It is prerequisite to perform his role. By itself it doesn't worth ♥♥♥♥.

It's not nessesary, if you can perform your duty, by dominating lower level opponents from safe and hard lane.

And winning mid is needed because when you go to dominate other lane, enemy mider will also be there(must be), and if he lost mid he will be weaker and won't stop you. And no support or carry should be capable to overpower powerspiked crew. That's why you usually go gank first on 6 min.(well not on invo, he ganks with sunstrikes). Because YOU have your ultimate, and your opponent don't (also rune comes to help ensure success). That almost guarantee you victory in a fight, and domination on another lane. It also move away enemies powerspikes, and consequently strengths and meant ng of those. If you hesitate to get more levels and items, e.g. you "won" your lane and have good farm, "everything good" your opponents will get their ultimates, and result will be less obvious. You lose your powerspike. You also guaranteed to lose your power spike trying to outfarm carry.

And you know what happens when one of the miders doesn't show himself to this early fight? That's right. It doesn't matter wether he won mid or even exist in a game. That is a hard truth. Your "lost" opponent will still dominate this lane with his power spike and support from that lane duo, and you losing your powerspike will make your victory in mid absolutely irrelevant. Fail your role and your team. And your duo after bieng dominated OBJECTIVELY WITHOUT A CHANCE will not be able to help you later in the game, and will blame you, without care about who won mid, because it is prerequisite, not a goal. And enemy team will snowball out of control. It will also break morale and consequently teamplay.

I never played mid lane dedicatedly, my main role is support (although I played offlane a lot, 65% winrate untraditional centaur, untill role rating forced me into choosing one role), but I played mid enough to understand what and why is needed by mider, because that is nessary to support. That is why I always give ward to my mider no matter how much I need other items, because I know, that he needs it to control runes, and if he won't, I will be the one who will suffer because of ganks from mid, or leave no chance for mider to win. And how I burn, when he decides to put "non standard ward" Wich doesn't see any runes. And then getting ganked from invis rune pudge and blame no ss.

That is also why I don't recommend invoker mid, as he needs to farm, when miders role demands to start realise advantage. Therefore leaving gaping chasm in your team composition, as carry may be ready to relocate to jungle, support objectively no longer can single handedly fight somewhat farmed offlaner, or enemy carry. That's where mider must join supports, and become a full fledged core fitting the gap, while his carry farms.

Setting up kills for carry reduce time untill he can join the fight, becoming second full fledged core, providing you personally and your team advantage of early ready team, eventually winning the game.
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Showing 1-15 of 36 comments
Fenrir_El Apr 25, 2019 @ 7:58pm 
I'm guardian in solo and crusader VII in party, so I definitely lack some knowledge, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how to impact the game more heavily as mid laner. As invoker, I push towers, when mid leaves the lane, as storm spirit or QOP, i push the lane and then gank someone. If I dominate mid, we still lose the game, cause other lanes lost it.
#1
Zagryzaec Apr 25, 2019 @ 9:07pm 
If you don't know how to play macro stop playing mid and practice supports.

It doesn't matter wether mk went for runes or went gank. It is THE SAME THING. Call ss, if your teammates are stupid ping the lane mk went to.

How can you even not notice when melee character left mid ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Wards or not, if he is not in lane hitting creeps he is missing. If he get dd, haste he WILL gank lane, as he should. And lose of this lane is your fault, not some warding issue.

Next - one of miders obligation is a rune control. It's a MUST. At the very least cast freaking forge some second before 2 min and send him lower rune, push lane and go top yourself. If rune is not on top and you cannot outrun mk deny lower with forge.

About rotating, ganking with invo - you do not need to go to lane personally to gank. That's what sunstriked are for. If you can't hit sunstrike why you even pick invoker.

You don't need to ward full map, but spending 75 gold for full comfortable mid is in my opinion worth it. At least more then complaining about lost game.

Let me make it clear for you. You had advantageous matchup in mid and lost it terribly, and also lost the game for your team. You, petsonally. That is misunderstanding of what midder's role is. It doesn't matter that you killed him once. At all.

You have no right to say, that your team lost you the game after picking mid, and failing so hard, ignoring most basic midder's obligation. I think you will feel much more comfortable as a carry and ruin slightly less games for your team having the same feel of importanty.

Picking invoker is bad enough, but picking invoker and not utilizing his skillset... If you wanted some nuker you could just pick qop or SF. You could even pick Lina or sm.

Another thing - if he don't stay in lane - make him. Push creeps as soon as he is far, bind him in mid. Make space for your carry as mider must. As his lane falls start forcing other lanes into submission. Learn what ganking actually is and how it works.

Also if you winning lane and need vision to perform your duty buy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ward. No support is supposed to go all the way to mid to do what courier does and single ward price is quite low for 6 mins for mider. In the worst case you should have bought it right after killing mk.

And yes, mider supposed to setup kills for carry, that's why he is position two. Can't do it with invo - pick someone with which you can do your duty. Carry doesn't STEAL your kills, he takes what is rightfully his. That's exactly why we call him carry. And about tanking damage - why the hell not. If you can kill/drive away monkey as you claimed, quas will be more then enough to quickly and free return your health and save health and money of carry or other, which, yes, impact game heavily.
#2
Fenrir_El Apr 26, 2019 @ 10:26am 
I read first two paragraphs and you're just arrogant prick. Not even gonna bother myself with reading further or responding to you. Not only you missed the whole point of my warding and knowing when and who leaves and comes to mid lane. The rune thing.. lol
#3
Zagryzaec Apr 26, 2019 @ 1:26pm 
As you wish, Mr crusader. Why even read answer to your question, right? You didn't come here to learn, or listen advice of some legend prick.
True invoker's have no need for basics of DotA.
Well there was thread nearby by 6 k player suggesting coaching. Maybe you would like his advices more.
#4
76561198939048748 Apr 26, 2019 @ 2:00pm 
its not enough to have just one good player on a team now,you need two.build a dota friends list with players who you can depend on.
#5
Fallen Devil Apr 26, 2019 @ 2:37pm 
stop blamig teammates, im divine player when i play on 3k rank with voker ez win, mostly 3 4k player doesnt know basic dota. only know farm farm farm and counter pick. dota is about timing when to push when to farm when to hunt when to hide when to help when to backup and when to adapt ur build. if you dont hv this sense u still dont get common sense playing dota. the difference between 4k and 3k just in farming skill. both of them still lack some basic. you are saying u dont know what to do. to win a game you just need 2 strong heroes in ur team. so if u cant be one of those, its useless. u can learn try to stack so u can fast farm. playing againts monkey king is pretty easy, unless u meet a meepo player or alche. u need team that understand how to shutdown them down.
#6
KAMOTE Apr 26, 2019 @ 2:49pm 
I as mid player . I would suggest just keep being better on any situation mainly your map awareness . Cause everytime its different like you are playing against agronplayer and some are just farming in lane . Its okay to ask for ganks and its okay for you to gank other lanes also
#7
AncienT oNe Apr 26, 2019 @ 3:29pm 
Personal laning picks:
Vs: sf lina pa tinker storm joker ember sf pick ta
Vs: ember kunka pa pl pick lc
#8
zZzooey.exe Apr 26, 2019 @ 3:35pm 
I suggest you invest 75 gold and ward one rune, as youve admitted youre good at last hitting this wont cripple your farm nor be a waste because
1. It may set positive example to your team
2. You WILL see where exactly MK went if you warded correctly and your teammates will see it. You will also be able to correctly call out missing.
3. You will potentially save yourself from enemy ganking you
4. Enemy midlaner probably wont expect youll ward (at your skill lvl)
Last edited by zZzooey.exe; Apr 26, 2019 @ 3:35pm
#9
Fenrir_El Apr 26, 2019 @ 5:50pm 
jesus christ, guys. let me get this clear, if it wasn't clear from my post:
1) I ALWAYS buy wards. if there is riki/bh, I also get sentry myself.
2) I often check top rune, but sometimes I miss it.
3) when MID ganks someone, I push hard. I use meteor to kill creeps, create my own minion, use alacrity, etc.
4) I awlays try to keep my tower alive and I don't go ganking, untill I push the lane or if some enemy is really diving under another lane's tower.

My question is: how to have a bigger impact? If I dominate the lane, my opponent just runs of to jungle or to another lane before 20min. If I don't he just ganks faster than me. As invoker, I can't compete in speed with qop, storm. mk etc.
It is my teammates fault for not warding THEIR lane, not watching minimap and just tunnel visionning the creeps, but I wanna be able to remedy that. The only way I know how is too push towers so hard that they come to mid, but ganking most of the time doesn't pay off, cause I manage to kill only one guy, who gets kill stealed, while I have no mana to do anything else other than walk back.

Also, can you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stop with your condescending attitude about me playing invoker. More often than not, everybody says I'm good invoker, cause I utilisie all of his spells and he's the most useful hero, in my opinion, in the late game as midder who can crowd control so nicely. With him I can have different builds and complement my team. I can go for more crowd control or more damage. I can impact whole enemy team or simply pick off one important target. I'm not saying I mastered invoker, but I play him decently and I know my duties as mid laner. i just wanted to know more details, but you just saw "crusader" and started with your "maybe you should pick something else"
#10
Fenrir_El Apr 26, 2019 @ 5:55pm 
I just wanted to read about your decision making, not some common sense things that I already know from watching youtube guides. I see on high lvl plays that midder rarely leaves mid, until min 20-25 and just keeps pushing mid tower, only when tower is gone, he starts to rotate or simply go jungle, depending on the hero, but in my mmr it's not gonna work, unless i get lucky
#11
Fenrir_El Apr 26, 2019 @ 6:05pm 
Originally posted by Zagryzaec:
As you wish, Mr crusader. Why even read answer to your question, right? You didn't come here to learn, or listen advice of some legend prick.
True invoker's have no need for basics of DotA.
Well there was thread nearby by 6 k player suggesting coaching. Maybe you would like his advices more.

dude, I asked for advice, you started your tips with "If you don't know how to play macro stop playing mid and practice supports. ". Secondly, you completely ignored what I wrote and just went on with your usual. If you paid more attention to my post, you'd know that my macro is at level corresponding to crusader, but I wish to get better. Now, I consistently farm better, last hit better, avoid ganks better, but I wish to do more for my team than simply drawing attention to mid, cause when that happens my whole team shows up and then I don't farm, there's no fighting, no exp gain and 3-5min goes to waste.
#12
LordDeTracy Apr 26, 2019 @ 6:20pm 
Do us all a favor and play support.
#13
Fenrir_El Apr 26, 2019 @ 6:31pm 
Originally posted by Zizou:
stop blamig teammates, im divine player when i play on 3k rank with voker ez win, mostly 3 4k player doesnt know basic dota. only know farm farm farm and counter pick. dota is about timing when to push when to farm when to hunt when to hide when to help when to backup and when to adapt ur build. if you dont hv this sense u still dont get common sense playing dota. the difference between 4k and 3k just in farming skill. both of them still lack some basic. you are saying u dont know what to do. to win a game you just need 2 strong heroes in ur team. so if u cant be one of those, its useless. u can learn try to stack so u can fast farm. playing againts monkey king is pretty easy, unless u meet a meepo player or alche. u need team that understand how to shutdown them down.

Thanks. I am trying to improve on being time efficient to increase my farming skills and learn when to do something. RIght now, I just know the basic of having a choice of fighting with your team or pressuring them on the other lane, forcing a reaction. When I am against alch or meepo, I just ready my spells in advance as invoker or keep distance as storm/qop, while warding behind the trees to the side and harrasing them until, I can get an instant kill. With alch, I try to chase them off the lane and then hunt him in jungle.

I saw sumia slowing meepo every time he tries to throw a net with ice wall and then just kill him with alacrity and meteor. Works for me too, but when he gets dagger, that's gg for me, unless I get to be the one ganking.
#14
Zagryzaec Apr 26, 2019 @ 11:46pm 
Originally posted by Fenris_M:
jesus christ, guys. let me get this clear, if it wasn't clear from my post:
1) I ALWAYS buy wards. if there is riki/bh, I also get sentry myself.
2) I often check top rune, but sometimes I miss it.
3) when MID ganks someone, I push hard. I use meteor to kill creeps, create my own minion, use alacrity, etc.
4) I awlays try to keep my tower alive and I don't go ganking, untill I push the lane or if some enemy is really diving under another lane's tower.

My question is: how to have a bigger impact? If I dominate the lane, my opponent just runs of to jungle or to another lane before 20min. If I don't he just ganks faster than me. As invoker, I can't compete in speed with qop, storm. mk etc.
It is my teammates fault for not warding THEIR lane, not watching minimap and just tunnel visionning the creeps, but I wanna be able to remedy that. The only way I know how is too push towers so hard that they come to mid, but ganking most of the time doesn't pay off, cause I manage to kill only one guy, who gets kill stealed, while I have no mana to do anything else other than walk back.

Also, can you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stop with your condescending attitude about me playing invoker. More often than not, everybody says I'm good invoker, cause I utilisie all of his spells and he's the most useful hero, in my opinion, in the late game as midder who can crowd control so nicely. With him I can have different builds and complement my team. I can go for more crowd control or more damage. I can impact whole enemy team or simply pick off one important target. I'm not saying I mastered invoker, but I play him decently and I know my duties as mid laner. i just wanted to know more details, but you just saw "crusader" and started with your "maybe you should pick something else"
It's not your teammates fault that you need a 30 sec to realise enemy is not hitting creeps. It is a problem on other lanes where supports hide out of sight, but not for mid lane, where enemy required to gather resources. I for example when need to have lane attention ping there, where I know that lane is in danger.

YES, if you want to have bigger impact you must watch all three lane. Especially if you picked invoker. Yes it's hard. But rewards you with impact and win in games that should be list.

Runes in this game may win lane, may give you free gank. Mider MUST control them, it's not a matter of "sometimes" and chance. Do you also ls creeps "sometimes"?

I already told you, but invo does not "walk" to lanes unless found haste rune and has tp. He ganks with sun strike. You get Mana back by clarity.

You do not understand what is told to you and don't want to understand. Why are you here? "Good invoker" usually already bad. What team needs is a good mider, who will be ready to fight and dominate other mider and lanes around 6-13 mins and on. Not another useless jungler who dreams to turnaround games. Yes I know what invoker can do, the problem that you can't or you didnt had some melee monkey dominate your team. Also most of his spells are unreliable, and once enemy has bkb they will just ignore you, proceed smashing your team, which you abandoned, and drop your throne.

You don't want to have impact, you don't want to win, you don't want to learn. You want to be offended and cry, in chat, in forum and so on. That's the hard truth. There is a lot of characters that I would love to play, and I abandoned more then one signature, because I realise, that in this present exact conditions I cannot make game winning impact for my team with them. It hurts, but it must be done and it is part of DotA.

#15
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Date Posted: Apr 25, 2019 @ 7:54pm
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